Were the disciples saved before the resurrection?

By using this scripture in referring to me you most certainly imply that I speak to the spirits of the dead

Explain the purpose of a MEDIUM! OK, It is to conjure up the spirits of the dead and be the channel through which that or those spirit(s) speak(s) to the living, and vise versa.

 

Then you had better not talk to God! Jesus says that God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth! So you just better not pray to God or you are doing what is forbidden!

 

Wes.

Medium rare maybe but I did not call you a medium or imply it.
I made the point that I did not believe you spoke, or claimed, or I believed you claimed to speak with the dead.

I called you a spiritist. You said you speak with the spirits. Is that a spiritist?
I made the point specifically for a specific reason and made absolutely sure that you could not come back at me with this. That I do not believe you speak to the dead I told you.

I have no desire to discuss mediums. I think mediums, though I'm not sure, act as mediums between people and the spirits for, on the face of it, people, I do not believe you intercede for people, do you?
You have direct access to spirits, you ask them questions.

I never said that Wes conjured up the dead.
posted by me 14 January, 2005 13:03

johnp.

 

Wes.

ILUVLIGHT already used that one and I've already told him that is glib.

johnp.

 

From the Catholic Encyclopedia,

I believe that being made in the image of God, that man is spirit, and that man's spirit is housed in a body of flesh and bone, to which the spirit gives life (quickens) while living this "natural" life. Once this life ends, the spirit departs from the flesh which decomposes to its base elements, earth elements, and that these same elements do not get restored to life at the prophesied resurrection, but that we will be "resurrected in New Glorified bodies" in the "image" of Jesus the Christ.

I believe that it is the "fruit" of our human spirit by which we are known. That is, our flesh conforms to what our spirit produces. If our spirit is evil, our actions will be evil, if we are righteous, our actions will be righteous, and everything in between. I do not believe that man is totally depraved, nor incapable of seeking God, or any of those standard complaints that Calvinist adhere to. We are made in the image of God, so if we are totally depraved, God is likewise totally depraved!

I believe that since we are in the image of God, and since we (mankind) choose to sin, that we separate our image from that of God, by the gulf that sin puts between us. Our image hasn't changed, but we are no longer in direct contact with the Pure and Holy ONE. We must be restored to him and the only way for that to happen is for us to want to be restored, and to have faith in the one who does the restoring, you know, the one who made us in the first place. We need to extend our hands toward him with eagerness to be restored, we must seek for Him to restore us, we must have faith that he does what HE promises to do in and for us. But if we turn our back on Him, we show him that we do not want to be restored, and he complies with us. At any time during our lives we can be facing him with arms outstretched in eagerness and anticipation, or we can turn our back on him. That part is up to us! He said, I have placed before you life and death, Choose Life.

 

Wes.

You go to the Roman Catholics, that broad of vipers, what for, to prove that you don't talk to spirits! A thing you said you do! Why? So what if you think I got the term wrong, the truth is you say you test the spirits by asking them questions.
To say I do not care what the Roman Catholics say, those butchers, is short of my meaning if you get my meaning. Why chuck them in, do you hope to upset me or are you that desperate? King Saul got like that. His pride was as large and as ineffective as his armour.

The word spiritualism does not occur in the scriptures as far as I know. You go outside scripture and to those, (edited by self control), for support?
Dt 18:11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. You do not read the posts. I have already pointed out that a spiritist is different from one who consults the dead as far as scripture is concerned. As far as Rome is concerned they are not concerned with scripture.

Dt 18:12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. 13 You must be blameless before the LORD your God.

There are reasons I do not want to discuss talking to the dead.
Answer this. Is there a difference between talking to the dead and spiritism as seen in Dt 18? If not what are the 'or's' for and don't say paddling.

Spiritism is not philosophical it is real and biblical which those murderers would like you to believe is philosophical because they are up to their necks in the reality.

Regardless of what it is called do you speak to spirits. If no then why did you say you do? If yes ask God for forgiveness and be cleansed. It's that simple.

That is the first part.

johnp.

 

Wes.

Then you deny scripture and live in make believe. GE 5:3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth.

That man is dead spiritually before God, Gen 3:3 but God did say, `You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "
That you say the same as Satan and try to convince people that Adam and Eve did not surely die when they touched the forbidden fruit, GE 3:4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman.

It is the fruit from the tree by which we are known! Sinners. Dead men walking.

Romans 8:7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
A denial of scripture refuted by you and of course not forgetting that which upsets you so much, Romans 3:10-18 "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one." "Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit." "The poison of vipers is on their lips." "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness." "Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ways, and the way of peace they do not know." "There is no fear of God before their eyes."
Or in the words of a wise man I have heard recently, NNE!!!!!!!!

That does not need reply to you.

And where did He say this and what did He say it about?
DT 30:15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.

That is about the law and the law was only put in place to increase sin and lead us to Christ. The 'us' are those that realise the choice to live is not based on law nor on us but God has mercy on those He has mercy on and damns the rest just because He damns the rest.
Romans 8:7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
For I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.
Romans 8:7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.

johnp.

 

Then you deny scripture and live in make believe. GE 5:3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth.</font>[/QUOTE]Interesting thing that neither Cain nor Abel are said to be in the likeness of Adam. Must have been the milkman and the postman who fathered them, cause they weren't in the image of Adam, else the scriptures would have told us so.

Do you get the message of how foolish your arguement is. No one else in scripture is said to be in the image of their human father, yet you hang it all on this one scripture about Seth!

 

The errors you make continue to compound...This one veers directly toward Gnosticism.

Wes, was Jesus resurrected in the same body in which He died or not?

If so, then how is it that our new resurrected, glorified bodies are not the same bodies if we are resurrected in his image? Those bodies are the same elements resurrected into a qualitatively different state, just like Jesus' body is the same elements resurrected in a qualitatively different state.

You say you believe we are in God's image. I ask you again, does God have the ability to sin?

God can not sin, because it is not in His character. If we CAN do what you say we can do, then we can be saved by works.

One's actions will conform to one's character. This TOO is in God's image. You believe we can do something that God can not do Himself: make choices that do not conform to our character as God haters, children of wrath, etc. If Adam and Eve who did not know good and evil and who walked in complete fellowship with God did not do what you say we can do, then what makes you think that we, as fallen sinners, haters of God, workers of iniquity, that can not come to God to be saved apart from being drawn directly and individually by the Spirit, that God calls children of wrath that have minds that literally can not submit themselves to the law, can or will choose Christ!? That's absurd.

God can not sin, because it is not a part of His character. Man, after the fall, can not come to God to be saved unless it is granted to Him by God. Those are Jesus very own words on the matter from John 6!

You are going against the plain meaning of Jesus' own words. You're calling the Lord a liar.

How many times does God have to state it in Scripture before it is true?

 

Let's see now, God the son says that, "it is spirit that quickens the flesh, that the flesh has nothing to offer." If the flesh of mankind has a dead spirit the flesh itself is dead because it is the spirit that quickens the flesh.

The reality is that man's spiritual relationship with God is dead because of sin. Man who is made in the image of God is very much alive, but still separated from God! Faith in God is Man's ONLY salvation, and Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. It is not Grace that does the Saving, It is God who does the saving, God and Grace are not equals, grace cannot do what God can do.

 

lets stop using Jesus as example of normal human life. He did not have a human father! His father is the one true God, and he indeed is himself the one true God for he declared that I and the father are one! No human born of human father and mother has ever come close to fulfilling over 60 prophesies, Yet Jesus did fulfill 60 plus prophesies. NO! Jesus was not the norm and Must not be used as an example of normal man. Even Jesus resurrection was the fulfillment of prophesy!

You only fool yourself by using the only unique God/man as your example of normal humanity! For example, You cannot call ten thousand angels to keep you from stubbing your toe. Jesus had the power to do that! Scriptures say so!

Whether or not Jesus resurrected bodily is a moot question. The evidence exists that human flesh decays to its base elements, and if exposed to the atmosphere, those elements would blow all over the planet carried on the four winds. Humans who have been buried remain buried except when conditions cause the integrity of their graves to disentigrate and the caskets rise and float away. I've seen that happen, and I've helped to recover caskets that when opened still held the decomposed remains of humans inside. Some of the caskets opened up and sank under the water, and all that was in them dispersed in the flood waters, not to be reassembled in one place again. Is it beyond God's power to do that? No. But why would he do that when God the son says that the flesh has nothing to offer?

 

Jesus told us that God is spirit, spirit does not require flesh to live. In fact it is spirit that quickens flesh, and not the other way around. So Gene, being in the image of God is being spirit, not flesh!

 

Why didn't God say it about Cain or Abel the 1st and 2nd males born to Adam and Eve? Why was the 3rd male born to Adam and Eve the only one who was born in the image of Adam? Why is there such importance placed upon the first born from generation to generation if the example is the 3rd born?

 

Paul said Abraham's faith is the faith of the Christian.

Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all... Romans 4:16.

This is elementary.

 

Good response Aaron!

 

Wes.

If you can show me where a man is said to be in the likeness of God and not be a Child of God I will yield the point and eat my words. Can't say fairer than that guv! But you won't eat yours, will you, if you cannot? You just keep trundling 'a'?

No I do not know how foolish my arguments are. This is partly why I am here. I want to tell people what I know so that I can find out how foolish my arguments are. The best way that I have found for learning is listening to the reaction my beliefs cause and modifying them when I am corrected, you should give it a shot sometime. That causes one to go forward instead of round and round.

Why then do we have to be transformed into the image of God if we are already in His image? 2 Cor 3:18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
How can this be the image of God? Romans 3:10-18 "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one." "Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit." "The poison of vipers is on their lips." "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness." "Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ways, and the way of peace they do not know." "There is no fear of God before their eyes."

That is why I believe what I believe. It's for you to show me where I err not just say I do.

I think so to and sometimes I too like to speculate, but not far and not publicly.

I don't think it was the postman or milkman, the bible would have told us. But it is interesting. I did not know you knew how to write bibles! God should have asked you to write a book or two.

You are at odds with the word.

What, just this one or all of them?
2 Cor 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

That would not be my fault then would it? Created to be burnt!

johnp.

 

ILUVLIGHT it just got dark!

Before Christ. HaHa!

1 Peter 1:18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.

johnp.

 

Why, thank you!

 

You know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God.

You start out saying no one lived by faith in the OT. I post Scriptures to show you they did. Then you said it must have been a different faith. So I showed you it was the same. Instead of believing God, you persist in your error, saying it was not the same.

So, I'm done. If you won't listen to God, what good can I do?