What about the nature of version selections

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Yes it is. I have tried to avoid piling on since you seem to be alone here but you are simply in denial if you believe this statement is not true.

For instance, there is no majority text for the ending of Mark. There are several versions that differ in substance within the Byzantine/traditional text line.

All the evidence we have says that all of these mss were accepted as the Word of God.

I know your desire will be to avoid this simple truth but I hope that for once you will deal with a fact that disproves your position rather than being dishonest with yourself.
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So Hank,


Are these last 12 verses of the gospel of Mark, the word of God or not? And how do you know? How are you to convince one one way or the other? Am I now to be confused? Should I believe it, or should I not? Is God now making me decide what he has preserved, and what he hasn't? Which one shall I believe?

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

I'm not Hank.

Why don't you just deal with this plain fact? You are doing nothing but evading the truth. Your belief cannot account for this fact so you go into the "woe is me..." act by asking absurd, rhetorical questions.

If your belief concerning versions were sound, you would have no trouble accounting for the facts concerning the ending of Mark nor with reconciling it to God's inspiration or preservation of His Word. The weakness isn't in the facts. The weakness is in what you believe about versions.

 

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From there, you all go on to assert that the KJV/TR alone is God's Word. You add this error to the prior truths... and yield a devilish lie.
quote:
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The devilish lie is to believe that God now is allowing a weaker testimony of himself rather than the stronger testimony, and allowing omittions to his words of truth, to which he condems.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Michelle,

Now hold on a miniute!!

"This will be revealed to you, when you read God's word concerning this, precept upon precept, and scripture with scripture. Do this and only this, and you will be mightily blessed and not confused and doubtful as you now are."

Now we've entered Michellology! This is where your mandate ends and your OPINION begins. Like Ps 12:6-7 - the "them" can be quite well understood as people. In fact if you look at verses 5 and 8 then it really becomes clear that it refers to people!

Anyway that's my OPINION!! You cannot with scriptural authority conclude that if I read it a certain way that the truth will be apparent to me. The truth was not selectively revealed to you or me or anyone.

I'm simply trying to help defray some of your obvious frustrations with Cranston, me and some of the others!! You just need to see that when scripture doesn't EXPLICITLY say something then we end up using our mind and OPINIONS!! I am not saying your opinions are bad - I'm just saying they are your opinions!! And you can't force those on the biblical text. You can say that the Spirit has given you understanding - but I'd like to think he has given me as well! And we know scripture is not open to private interpretation!

Remember this is a DEBATE forum!!

 

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If your belief concerning versions were sound, you would have no trouble accounting for the facts concerning the ending of Mark nor with reconciling it to God's inspiration or preservation of His Word. The weakness isn't in the facts. The weakness is in what you believe about versions.
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I apologize for calling you Hank, I realized this shortly after I posted. Sorry. You and Hank sound similiar to me, I suppose that is why I was confused.


I don't have the problem reconciling this, because I do not need to reconcile it, for those verses are the words of God. It is you and others who must reconcile this, and cannot, by reason of not being able to answer this question. Can you answer it and stay true to God's word and promises concerning his words? Or do you also deny that? How then are you to be sure and trust you will be kept in God's will and from deception?


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

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Anyway that's my OPINION!! You cannot with scriptural authority conclude that if I read it a certain way that the truth will be apparent to me. The truth was not selectively revealed to you or me or anyone.

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Truth is not wishy washy or doubtful. It is absolute truth, just as much as 1 plus 1 equals 2. The truth reveals itself. The truth is apparent and revealed to all who are willing to hear and believe. God doesn't reveal to me my own opinion, but what is his truth. The Holy Spirit will lead us to all truth. Yes, the Lord has revealed this truth to me regarding this passage. Has he revealed to you the truth regarding this passage? Or are you just unsure, it could be this, or it could be that?

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Ken,

I think your options are a little skewed!

And since when is all higher education "popish"? I suppose you know that before Vat II the RCC eschewed "critical scholarship" and rejected most of the liberal European protestant higher criticism.

Remember that antibiotics, electricity, and running water came from people using their God-given minds. Why is it OK to use the mind for medicine but evil to try to further our understanding of scripture using scholarship? Hint: It isn't !

I am not afraid to study critically. I am not afraid that any rug could be pulled out from under my feet! So why not learn? Too many believers are afraid that if we admit that this or that traditional belief is not really true then we'll eventually "give away the farm". This seems like a poor argumnet since ONE objective truth does exist. I want to know as much about it as God will let me!

 

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You are not alone; you have a firm foundation in the Holy Bible. As you can see plainly you are dealing with hardened harts that have no desire or will to seek the richness of the Holy Bible. The fact is if you do submit to the thinking that is getting pushed on us then we have no ‘Word of God’ at all.
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Amen!!! Brother Ken. I am glad to see someone else understand this on these threads for a change today. I believe that the very Bible I have in my hands, and that the Lord has blessed me and multitude of others with, is the very words of God to us in our language, and are just as authoritative as the day they were God breathed to the prophets. I do not need to doubt it, nor am I led to doubt it. The evidence is that He has done it, and Praise the Lord our God for it!

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

OK, I know that this was not actually directed at me but by mistake.
I’ll answer anyway.

Yes.

By a mixture of an analysis of the text, context and related Scripture, historical evidence, and prayer.

But that is not that every child of God would include all these in their own inventory. Bottom line (IMO):

James 1:5ff
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

I have asked and God has lead me to exercise all of the above elements. I am sure of His leading.

Others may not be sure the last 12 verses of Mark are Scripture.

That’s between God and themselves.

See James 1:5-8

Again see James 1:5-8

HankD

 

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I am not afraid to study critically. I am not afraid that any rug could be pulled out from under my feet! So why not learn? Too many believers are afraid that if we admit that this or that traditional belief is not really true then we'll eventually "give away the farm". This seems like a poor argumnet since ONE objective truth does exist. I want to know as much about it as God will let me!
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It might do you well to meditate upon these verses of scripture:


Jeremiah 6

16 Thus saith the Lord, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

17 Also I set watchmen over you, saying, Hearken to the sound of the trumpet. But they said, We will not hearken.

18 Therefore hear, ye nations, and know, O congregation, what is among them.

19 Hear, O earth: Behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it.

20 To what purpose cometh there to me incense from Sheba, and the sweet cane from a far country? your burnt offerings are not acceptable, nor your sacrifices sweet unto me.

21 Therefore thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will lay stumbling blocks before this people, and the fathers and the sons together shall fall upon them; the neighbor and his friend shall perish.

Even though the context of this passage is concerning the nation of Israel, this same thing applies for us today, as we are also God's people, and must hear the Lord and trust in His ways, and His words, and his laws, and His ways.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Michelle wrote:

My Reply: I believe that the very Bible I have in my hands (In my case, the NASB), and that the Lord has blessed me and multitude of others with, is the very words of God to us in our language, and are just as authoritative as the day they were God breathed to the prophets. I do not need to doubt it, nor am I led to doubt it. The evidence is that He has done it, and Praise the Lord our God for it!

Question: I can make my above statement with equal conviction as Michelle apparently does in hers. Why would my statement be any less true than hers? (HINT: They're both equally true & valid.)

 

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But that is not that every child of God would include all these in their own inventory. Bottom line (IMO):

James 1:5ff
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
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Only one problem with this. You are applying this to God's inspired words of truth to which he has preserved and to which we are not to question nor doubt. This does not apply to verifying what is or is not God's word. He has already established his words of truth in his power, might, authority and direction. This is regarding wisdom or understanding that we might gain from reading and studying his word, not to be applied to judging what is his word, for His words are already established and preserved.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Michelle,

That verse has nothing to do with Christians studying the bible. If I were extolling the virtues of idolatry, sex and drunkenness then this verse would be quite applicable!!

You still seem convinced that all of your OPINIONS are as good as EXPLICIT scripture. I guess we're all guilty of that to a certain extent. I'll never attack you for your strength of belief - but you're not likely to convince many people with your arguments since you cannot seem to separate scripture from traditional opinion.

 

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That verse has nothing to do with Christians studying the bible. If I were extolling the virtues of idolatry, sex and drunkenness then this verse would be quite applicable!!
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That verse of scripture has everything to do with studying the Bible and knowing the ways of the Lord, His word, and his commandments. We can't know these things without studying/knowing His words. What is this traditional belief you refer to? That the Lord's words are preserved for you? What is it exactly you are being critical of in the traditional beliefs? This passage applies.

Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

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That verse has nothing to do with Christians studying the bible. If I were extolling the virtues of idolatry, sex and drunkenness then this verse would be quite applicable!!
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If one studies the words of the Lord and is given understanding from the Lord, then they would not have OPINIONS but the TRUTH. Do you understand Psalm 12? If so, what is the truth of it?

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

michelle are you trying to tell me what I experienced?

I said
"I have asked and God has lead me to exercise all of the above elements. I am sure of His leading."

Concerning What I had read in the Bible (the Douay-Rheims version BTW) which eventually led me out of the Church of Rome?

My decision to be made was which is the Word of God, The Bible (douay-rheims) or the pronouncements of the Church of Rome Magesterium (or both) and how can I know?

BTW, where does it say that in this passage? Are you taking away from the Word of God by this statement which you have made? God said "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him" I don't see anything here limiting it as you have done. You, who have chastised others for limiting God's ablility to preserve His Word?



Be careful...

Psalm 78:41
Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.


HankD

 

Yes it is. I have tried to avoid piling on since you seem to be alone here but you are simply in denial if you believe this statement is not true.

For instance, there is no majority text for the ending of Mark. There are several versions that differ in substance within the Byzantine/traditional text line.

All the evidence we have says that all of these mss were accepted as the Word of God.

I know your desire will be to avoid this simple truth but I hope that for once you will deal with a fact that disproves your position rather than being dishonest with yourself. </font>[/QUOTE]The following is posted at the personal request of the source via email correspondence with me. He does NOt actively participate on this board, but he does observe it from time to time. Please, if anybody wishes to respond to him personally, please send your correspondence to my email and I will forward it to him.
Maurice A. Robinson, Ph. D.

Senior Professor of New Testament and Greek

Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary

Wake Forest, North Carolina





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Scott J wrote:



&gt;For instance, there is no majority text for the ending of Mark. There are several versions that differ in substance within the Byzantine/traditional text line.



Fact: there is a definite and unambiguous majority or Byzantine text for the long ending of Mark. Out of 1643 MSS that contain the long ending of Mark, at least 1449 MSS (88.2%) appear to be in complete agreement throughout that passage (insofar as such can be established from the evidence presented in the collation data of the Text und Textwert series); these MSS clearly reflect the dominant majority text or Byzantine Textform.



Had Scott J made his statement in regard to the various streams of transmission in relation to the Pericope Adulterae (Jn 7:53-8:11), then his statement would be more correct, since the several differing streams within the Byzantine text of that pericope do differ in some degree. Even so, it remains the case that the Pericope Adulterae as part of the Byzantine Textform does retain the greater portion of its text in common, regardless of the varying transmissional streams.

 

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BTW, where does it say that in this passage? Are you taking away from the Word of God by this statement which you have made? God said "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him" I don't see anything here limiting it as you have done. You, who have chastised others for limiting God's ablility to preserve His Word?
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Go back and really read my post. I am not taking away from God's word. Is God's word still being established? Or has he already established it? Has God preserved his words as he promised? Is God telling us in this passage that we are to judge what is, and isn't God's established word (the scriptures?)? Is he? Or are you adding to God's word? Better yet, please explain what is wisdom?


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle