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What about the nature of version selections

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Ken4JC, May 4, 2004.

  1. michelle

    michelle New Member

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    --------------------------------------------------
    The Lord specifically mentions the KING OF BABYLON, most likely Belshazzar, in Isaiah 14. Are you possibly ADDING a precept by insisting it's Satan?
    --------------------------------------------------

    The King of Babylon never fell from heaven, but Satan, the dragon does. The timing of this passage is in the last days, if you read precept upon precept, and if you compare scripture with scripture, you will also see Mystery Babylon, and the King who reigns during tribulation period.

    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  2. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Michelle:Again, you are denying the truth as God reveals to you even in this Psalm concerning his words.

    IS HE?

    Or, is he disagreeing with the interpretation of the Hebrew as presented by the KJVOs?

    Here's the verses as they appear in the AV 1611:

    Psalms 12:5 "For the oppreffion of the poore, for the fighing of the needy, now will I arife (faith the LORD,) I will fet him in faftie from him that puffeth at him. 6 The wordes of the LORD are pure words : as filuer tried in a fornace of earth purified feuen times. 7 Thou fhalt keepe them, (O LORD,) thou fhalt preferue them, from this generation for euer."

    And here's the marginal note:

    Heb. him, i. euery one of them.

    So you see, applying these verses to God's word is disagreeing with the AV translators.


    You have no confidence whatsoever, that what God has said, is the absolute truth.

    Actually, he has full confidance in GOD, and none in the jabber of the KJVOs.


    You are misinterpreting the scriptures, or wresting the scriptures in order to justify your condoning of those things that have or would corrupt/alter God's words. It is not what I believe God to be saying, it is what has God said.

    No, it's what some translator(s) SAID God said. God did NOT present His word to Israelites in English.
     
  3. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Michelle: wonder, if you can't even understand or try to understand what a person is saying to you, how then do you understand what God is saying to you? I do wonder. I never said they left out doctrine. I said they weaken it.

    I disagree. Please be specific.
     
  4. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Michelle:But you say you relied upon God's word to define God's word, when in reality you haven't and have actually doubted God's word by going to other things.

    Such as???

    God's word clearly defines who Lucifer is refering, to which is Satan. This will be revealed to you, when you read God's word concerning this, precept upon precept, and scripture with scripture. Do this and only this, and you will be mightily blessed and not confused and doubtful as you now are.

    God specifically says,"KING OF BABYLON". Given the pagan nature of Babylon, Satan WAS its king in some respects, but plainly God was referring to a human king, most likely Belshazzar, as he was in the midst of a drunken party when God wrote on his wall, and he was killed that very night. When God said "king of Babylon, He did NOT mean, "king of Persia". You agree that God is NOT the author of confusion, so why do YOU try to confuse us by saying something other than what God specifically said?

    You reminded us to build a concept from God's word verse upon verse, precept upon precept. Therefore, take your own advice. before Isaiah 14:12, there's Isaiah 14:4, to-wit: "That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!"

    The subject was the king of Babylon, as God said. There is NO change of subject in the subsequent verses until the thread was finished. There's your proof, straight from the KJV.
     
  5. michelle

    michelle New Member

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    --------------------------------------------------
    When JFK became President, there were doomsayers saying the RCC had gotten control of the USA. We now know JFK's RCism had no bearing upon his conduct as President. Again I'm not saying it's impossible for the RCC to regain power, but right now in the USA, the recent "Boyzz R Us" scandals have brought the nation's general opinion of it lower than a snake's belly. Again, given the worldwide prevalence of various offshoots of the "Mustery, Babylon" religion such as Hinduism, Moonies, New Age, Wicca, B'hai, & occultism and witchcraft in general, this seems to be the candidate right now. And we cannot discount ISLAM. Its supporters are trying hard to get it accepted in the traditionally-Christian nations.
    --------------------------------------------------

    You might want to heed our Lord's warnings in:

    Matthew 24

    4. And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
    5. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
    6. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
    7. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
    8. All these are the beginning of sorrows.
    9. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
    10. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
    11. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

    and

    2 Thessalonians 2

    1. Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
    2. That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
    3. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


    Revelation 17

    1. And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
    2. With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
    3. So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
    4. And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
    5. And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
    6. And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
    7. And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
    8. The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
    9. And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
    10. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
    11. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
    12. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
    13. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
    14. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
    15. And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
    16. And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
    17. For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
    18. And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.


    You are allowing yourself to be deceived, if you think the RCC has no worldly power of the kings of the earth. All I can say, is pay close attention to the news.

    What do you understand "committing fornication" to mean?

    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  6. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Michelle:The devilish lie is to believe that God now is allowing a weaker testimony of himself rather than the stronger testimony, and allowing omittions to his words of truth, to which he condems.

    And He also condemns ADDITIONS, which you vehemently deny exist, but then you simply cannot prove that what you say are omissions are simply the exclusion of ADDITIONS. You're trying to say it's raining while you're in a basement out of sight & sound of the weather outside.
     
  7. michelle

    michelle New Member

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    --------------------------------------------------
    We HAVE been trying to discuss the issues, but YOU are trying to go ahead & post while avoiding them. For example, you've said several times you're NOT KJVO, and have been asked many times what other BV(s) you'd recommend. Only now, you acknowledge the Geneva Bible, although the AV was made for the purpose of replacing the GB. And you've made an issue by saying things about people that you cannot prove, such as your saying yesterday that I reject the KJV - THEN, you avoid the issue by failing to paste any post of mine from any board where I've said I reject the KJV. Why do you avoid it? because you know YOU WERE WRONG, & just won't admit it. But that's OK - the rest of the readership sees right through your little game & knows you're an Aesop wannabee, a teller of tall tales.
    --------------------------------------------------

    My reason for using the example of an alcoholic was to explain the answer to you, but I guess you didn't understand it. You have not said the words I reject the KJV, but your words against it, and your standing for those things that are contrary to it, say this just as plain. You claim you are only trying to show double standards but what you are really doing is showing your disdain and dislike for the KJV. If you believe these things about the KJV, then why do you claim you revere it? Isn't this hypocracy? How can you claim the Lord's words have mistakes in them and how then can they then be authoritative? How can one even claim one holds and believes the Lord's words, when one denies the Lord's promise concerning them and the authority of them? Many say that we attack God's words because we show the errors of the modern versions, but when you attack the KJV which you also claim you believe is the word of God, then it is okay for you to attack God's word? Either you dislike the KJV or you are a hypocrate. It is that simple.

    Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  8. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Ken4JC:You are not alone; you have a firm foundation in the Holy Bible. As you can see plainly you are dealing with hardened harts that have no desire or will to seek the richness of the Holy Bible.

    Pure KJVO rubbish, which you seek to substitute for a meaningful answer. Actually, we seek to read all that God has provided for us to read.


    [/i]The fact is if you do submit to the thinking that is getting pushed on us then we have no ?Word of God? at all.[/i]

    ACTUALLY, the fact is that if you DO think like us, yopu'll be free of a man-made, patently-false doctrine started by a known cult official.


    That is what happened when I followed the NIV to its final source, you see we have nice books that line out stuff that sounds very organized and rich with history. But if you ask why for only two layers of so called ?real copies? you find that we have no original manuscript or direct clear causal relation to the original manuscripts and to say that it is preserved in the copies leads us to so many choices that you can never say that the ?Word of God is the final authority in faith and practice ? on anything?.

    Can you provide one iota of proof that the NIV's sources are not the word of God? Just saying, "they aint the KJV, Textus Receptus, or the Byz mss" doesn't do for PROOF.


    So you have three clear simple choices that can be made by the believer.
    One - The KJB is the preserved Word of God and infallible and inerrant good for all maters of faith and practice.

    This choice, as stated, would be wrong, as we've PROVEN that the KJV has some boo-boos.


    Two - The pope like scholarship of higher education is the correct chooser of true revelation at their inspired level of understanding and they are the preserved Logos of Illumination infallible and inerrant good for all maters of faith and practice.
    Three ? God is the author of confusion and could not find his south side in a snowstorm with out any gloves on. Therefore if it feels good do it!


    These last "choices" are products of the wild imaginations of some KJVO who's fallen so far into the KJVO myth that his judgment & common sense are impaired.

    I hold to point one in this case, it is the only real choice that let?s the Father, Son and Holy Ghost that I have come to know be God.

    Actually, the BEST choice is: "I believe God can do ANYTHING, and that includes presenting Hia word AS HE CHOOSES, whether some people like His methods or not."

    I am forever amazed that not once have they taken the New Jerusalem Bible (AV of the Roman Catholic Faith) to task.

    Most of us consider this, and certain other versions such as the "People's Bible" as not worth our time.

    Again and again they have the fork ready to roast the KJV on an open pit, they say that they like the KJV but at times I think it is the same as an cannibal likes to have missionaries over for dinner, they do not ?hate? missionaries they find them quite yummy to keep in stock.

    When we attack the KJV, it's for the purpose of proving certain ridiculous KJVO statements wrong, such as, "The KJV is perfect".
     
  9. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Michelle:My reason for using the example of an alcoholic was to explain the answer to you, but I guess you didn't understand it.

    I understood it just fine, and it's just another one of your wrong answers.


    You have not said the words I reject the KJV, but your words against it,

    Used to refute the ridiculous claim that "the KJV is perfect".


    and your standing for those things that are contrary to it, say this just as plain.

    While your failure to address the differences between the accounts of the same events between the various books of the KJV(and other valid BVs) while hollering constantly about the differences between 'families' of mss shows a great double standard.


    You claim you are only trying to show double standards but what you are really doing is showing your disdain and dislike for the KJV.

    Know what "Bah! Humbug!" means?? I, & others, have plainly exposed some of your double standards. Everyone reading this has read those expose's, so there's no need to repeat them.


    If you believe these things about the KJV, then why do you claim you revere it? Isn't this hypocracy? How can you claim the Lord's words have mistakes in them and how then can they then be authoritative?

    The KJV, like any other valid Bible translation, is the perfect word of God translated by imperfect men. As for the mistakes, they're not just mere claims, they've been proven real, in a manner that anyone who sees them, and who knows fertilizer from Shinola can see they're REAL.


    How can one even claim one holds and believes the Lord's words, when one denies the Lord's promise concerning them and the authority of them?

    If you're onse more referring to Psalm 12:5-7, the doctrine that they apply to God's word has been proven WRONG, & that's that! The AV translators themselves said so in their marginal note.

    Many say that we attack God's words because we show the errors of the modern versions, but when you attack the KJV which you also claim you believe is the word of God, then it is okay for you to attack God's word?

    It's quite OK to attack a translator's poor rendering or other booboo. After all, we're dealing with man-made translations of God's perfect word made by imperfect men.


    Either you dislike the KJV or you are a hypocrate. It is that simple.

    Actually, what's quite simple and apparent is that you don't know beans from buttermilk of what you're talking about.

    This thread has reached 20 pages, & therefore I shall post in it no more. If you wish to continue this, please start another thread. Kowabunga.
     
  10. michelle

    michelle New Member

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    --------------------------------------------------
    And He also condemns ADDITIONS, which you vehemently deny exist, but then you simply cannot prove that what you say are omissions are simply the exclusion of ADDITIONS. You're trying to say it's raining while you're in a basement out of sight & sound of the weather outside.
    --------------------------------------------------

    Please read:

    Psalms 12

    1. Help, Lord; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men.
    2. They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak.
    3. The Lord shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things:
    4. Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us?
    5. For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the Lord; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.
    6. The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
    7. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
    8. The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted.


    Deuteronomy 8

    1. All the commandments which I command thee this day shall ye observe to do, that ye may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the Lord sware unto your fathers.
    2. And thou shalt remember all the way which the Lord thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.
    3. And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord doth man live.
    4. Thy raiment waxed not old upon thee, neither did thy foot swell, these forty years.
    5. Thou shalt also consider in thine heart, that, as a man chasteneth his son, so the Lord thy God chasteneth thee.
    6. Therefore thou shalt keep the commandments of the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, and to fear him.


    Matthew 4

    1. Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
    2. And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.
    3. And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
    4. But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

    Matthew 5

    17. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
    18. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    19. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
    20. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    Matthew 24

    14. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


    34. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
    35. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.


    Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  11. Ken4JC

    Ken4JC New Member

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    The point is can you prove that the NIV sources are the word of God? And when you look at your multi version plethora including the KJV how do you decide what bit is the Word of God and what do you do when some TBN Twinkie flake says that the LB is so much closer to the heart of the WORD of GOD? How are you right and TBN wrong – or are you a Charismatic also?

     
  12. Scott J

    Scott J Active Member
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    The same thing that we do when some KJVO Twinkie flake says that they have some divine revelation that the KJV is the only acceptable version of God's Word in English and that all MV's are corrupt perversions... we state the scriptural and historical facts that clearly refute these errant opinions.
    That's interesting. I always thought that it was the version onlyists that were claiming a latter day revelation... since the KJV didn't exist when any of the promises concerning scripture were given by God.

    [/QB][/QUOTE]
    ... or you can believe that several faithful translations of God's Word are "the preserved Word of God and infallible and inerrant good for all maters of faith and practice." Additionally, you can agree with the KJV translators who advised the comparison of translations to gain the best sense of scripture.
     
  13. Scott J

    Scott J Active Member
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    Thank you and Dr Robinson for the input.

    I for one wish he would participate here. He could add a great deal.

    One question that might seem silly but it goes to the heart of my contention with Michelle et al.

    Are the longer endings in perfect word for word agreement or are they substantially the same?

    I believe that a Bible is the Bible because of its substance. Michelle believes that a Bible is only the Bible if it agrees with her preconceived notions about what the wording should be.



    I would also like to thank you all for providing an alternative example rather than simply hanging me out to dry.
     
  14. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Michille: " The KJB is the
    name of the English translation
    of God's words that I use.
    I don't need any other.

    I took a bath one.
    I don't need any other.
    (Aren't you glad we talk
    by comptuer and not FTF = face to face, [​IMG] )
     
  15. Ken4JC

    Ken4JC New Member

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    That's interesting. I always thought that it was the version onlyists that were claiming a latter day revelation... since the KJV didn't exist when any of the promises concerning scripture were given by God.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Scott, how do you deal with your fellow MV people of the TBN side who think you are far too narrow minded in your limiting of the revelation of God to your special view concerning the pornography that they present in the name of progressive entertainment value as they teach teens that “we can look like the ‘hood’ as long as we ain’t the ‘hood’ in our heart. Hinki, Blinki, Blam! Blam! Yo Sam I am. WORD! Yo, who is u to Judge that rightness that JC put in my Heart dude! Testafi-e or Die Mon!”(finish with the gang gun kiss snap) :cool:

     
  16. Ken4JC

    Ken4JC New Member

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    As it seems that this has the edge of done I will offer what I have learned from my point of view in a type of summary given for your understanding.

    I have learned that to make the general charge of KJV ‘hater’ is not accurate and inflammatory in getting anything but a flame war started. I have apologized for the inflammatory accusation, and even pointed to the ‘KJVO’ hater as being too strong as I do not think that hate motivated the volume of this thread. But there is a lot of hostility to any that would oppose the MV or the source of the MV. As to my question about truth it would seem that the problem is blocked in the use of the MV other than an aether of faith in the fact that Jesus Christ is Truth. So in hope of a clarification I made it a multiple choice and organized it more in the nature of the response I have seen,

    It seems that the reply of choice for the kind participants is for the most part item two I am very glad that it was not three. Thank you again for you’re input it is very good to sharpen the points made on both sides. I have chosen point one and have had this point proven to my satisfaction. As the choice of two is the status quo of ‘Bible Versions/Translations’ area I will retire from this and read only. You all have been kind and very helpful in getting to this answer, I am thankful for your open soul in sharing. One day in eternity I do look forward to meeting you all face to face, believe it or not I do see you as friends and family. Maybe the only family I really have in this earth.
     
  17. GeneMBridges

    GeneMBridges New Member

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    Thank you and Dr Robinson for the input.

    I for one wish he would participate here. He could add a great deal.

    One question that might seem silly but it goes to the heart of my contention with Michelle et al.

    Are the longer endings in perfect word for word agreement or are they substantially the same?

    I believe that a Bible is the Bible because of its substance. Michelle believes that a Bible is only the Bible if it agrees with her preconceived notions about what the wording should be.



    I would also like to thank you all for providing an alternative example rather than simply hanging me out to dry.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Dr. Robinson has emailed me:

    Scott J wrote:



    &gt;One question that might seem silly but it goes to the heart of my contention with Michelle et al.
    &gt;Are the longer endings in perfect word for word agreement or are they substantially the same?



    Given that any scribe at any time might misspell a word (which no one in text critical circles would count as a “variant”), there is always the possibility that something less than the 1449 MSS which otherwise seem to retain identical text for those final 12 verses might differ on such minor points of orthography. However, it would be highly unlikely that all 1449 MSS would each differ among themselves even in spelling differences over such a short stretch of text. One probably would be fully justified to presume at least 1000 of those 1449 MSS would be in complete verbal agreement (this being a figure typical of precise Byzantine text support in other places where verification can be made, as per examination of the Text und Textwert series).



    Maurice A. Robinson, Ph. D.

    Senior Professor of New Testament and Greek

    Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary

    Wake Forest, North Carolina
     
  18. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Amen Dr Robinson.

    And with that, we've reached the 20-page limit.
     
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