What Biblical Basis is there...

I'll mark this for the week-end.
I have some prewritten files on floppy.
My floppy dirive on my main comptuer doesn't
work. I'll have to go to another computer
and e-mail the files to myself.

Paul taught the pretribulation rapture.
Jesus taught the pretribulation rapture
in the Mount Olivet Discourse.
I'll be back.

 

Deafposttrib,

You have been shown this many times by myself, and Ed Edwards, among others. This is not a point to stop fellowship among believers, but it can hinder it. Once many christians today, recognize the fact and truth, that God has not finished with Israel, and that Israel is going to be dealt with just prior to our Lord's return, and to understand exactly what the tribulation period is, and what it is meant for, including "the day of Christ" and "the day of the Lord", it can become quite clear, for those who desire to really hear and know. I recommend that you take a Bible Study course by Precepts ministry, by Wayne Barber. The only thing I have against this class is the use of NASB, but KJB is also applicable and to which is what I use. However, so far, it has not strayed too far from the truth, and Wayne is an excellent teacher, funny too. This course of the Book of Revelation, is an intense, and indepth study, line by line, precept upon precept, and you will greatly benefit from it. I highly recommend this to you. Then, maybe we can discuss this, because you seem to be stubborn to the truth in the scriptures that plainly show this.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

2 Thessalonians 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

If the he in verse 7 is antichrist, what does it mean for him to be taken out of the way? How is he revealed after he is taken out of the way? What is he letting (holding back?) I know that is the common interpretation, but I must admit to you that I don't understand it.

If the he is referring to Christians who are restraining the influence of iniquity, by being 'in the way' and preaching truth, then it makes sense that they must be taken out of the way before the man of perdition can be revealed.

You say that it is obvious that the he refers to the antichrist, because there is no mention of the saints in context. There is such a usage in scripture of the word he, that does not require an antecedent. It is a 'generic' he, that refers to anyone who fits this category of one who lets.

Hebrews 11
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Who is this he in verse 6? Is it Able? Cain? Enoch? Antichrist? Michael the Archangel? Of course, it is none of these. It is whoever comes to God. The he is defined by the action of coming to god, just as the he in 2Thes is defined by the action of letting, or restraining.

 

Well, my doctor isn't there so i need to
go to work.

In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
ask three questions:

(in the order asked):
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
2. What is the sign of His coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of age?

Jesus answers these questions in
Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
some parables.

Here are the answers of Jesus in the
order the questions were asked:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Here is a summary of the answers
in the order in which events will occur:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Soon, it was in 70AD

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.

Recall the Greek language in which this
Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
So many ands, buts, and other connectors
give the outline. I believe the major
outline to be:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
Rapture/resurrection which ends the
current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
last days, etc&gt

Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
church age even up to this time.
Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
that the church age continues.

 

Take a look at Zechariah 5. This shows that the woman is restrained by a lead wait in the basket, until the time that she is released. Ask yourself this question, who put this lead weight there, and what is it, and why is it there? Now this is speaking of the Harlot, spoken of in the book of Revelation 17 and 18. What about the beast? If the beast is the antichrist, then what restrains him? Take a look at Genesis 10 and 11. Who restrained the tower of Babel? Who was the King? Who is the king of Babylon? Take a look at Isaiah 13 and 14.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Do you know "Polysyndeton"?

Recall that the first chapter of Genesis
has a lot of verses starting with "and".
This is a Polysyndeton.
The polysyndeton is used much in
Matthew 24. It is the Greek word "kia"
it is translated "and", "then", "but", etc. The writers of the New Testament did not have
the bullets of Microsoft Word nor the
outlining of 19th century Ameica.

What is your outline of Matthey 24-25.
Ever corelate the three Mount Olivet
Discourse (MOD) accounts found in Matt. 24-25,
Mark 13, Luke 17?

 

Ed, you even speak Greek when you are speaking English. Can you rephrase that for the edification of the simple?

Lacy

 

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Take a look at Zechariah 5. This shows that the woman is restrained by a lead wait in the basket, until the time that she is released. Ask yourself this question, who put this lead weight there, and what is it, and why is it there? Now this is speaking of the Harlot, spoken of in the book of Revelation 17 and 18. What about the beast? If the beast is the antichrist, then what restrains him? Take a look at Genesis 10 and 11. Who restrained the tower of Babel? Who was the King? Who is the king of Babylon? Take a look at Isaiah 13 and 14.
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I must be missing how these texts apply. Could you clarify as well?
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Who is restraining and Why and How? It is God through the Holy Spirit. Since the believer is also indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and also uses the believer to hinder evil, and bring forth HIS LIGHT AND TRUTH, they will be taken out of the way. Of course the Holy Spirit will still be present on earth, but will not be recieved, as many will have hardened hearts, and he will take away those who are indwelt by Him away, because they through the Holy Spirit help keep evil from increasing to it's fullness. The woman represents the Harlot, which is a false religious system. With the saved on earth in the past up until now, and until that time, bearing witness to the truth and hinders the wickedness from coming to the fullness, will be taken away, and the Harlot and her wickedness will then be revealed as the same is for the antichrist. This will be a worldwide event, so the saved worldwide, must be taken home (as we see depicted with Lot and Sodom and Gomorah). Once this is done, the Wrath of God comes upon the whole face of the earth. It starts with the first seal, and ends with the seventh seal, to which the seventh seal contains the seven bowl and trumpet judgements. These are ALL JUDGEMENTS of God upon the earth, and it is the Lamb of God who is the only one found worthy to open these seals.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

I am not dogmatic on when the Rapture will occur, but I lean towards the Pre-Trib model.

There should be no argument as to whether or not there will be a rapture in the future. 1 Thes. 4:16-17 is clear that "those (believers) that are alive (in the flesh) and remain (on Earth) shall be caught up..." The only question is when, and how it relates to the Tribulation.

 

Here is an analogy that you might find interesting, and I am sure that many of you have heard of this before.

"The Jewish Wedding Analogy of John 14:1-3!"

BEHOLD, THE BRIDEGROOM COMES!
THE COMFORTING PROMISE

It was a night of destiny, Jesus had gathered with His disciples in the Upper Room. In a few more hours He would be crucified on a cross.
Jesus had been warning His disciples concerning His coming death, resurrection and ascension to heaven. The prospect of these events caused the disciples to be greatly disturbed. In order to ease their fears, Jesus made the following comforting promise:

"Let not your heart be troubled: you believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there you may be also. (KJV , John 14:1-3).

JEWISH MARRIAGE CUSTOMS

Those who live in the modern western world do not catch the full significance of Jesus' promise. This is due to the fact that in His promise Jesus was drawing an analogy from Jewish marriage customs in biblical times. Since this is so, those marriage customs must be examined if one is to grasp the significance of the promise.

The first major step in a Jewish marriage was betrothal. Betrothal involved the establishment of a marriage covenant. By Jesus' time it was usual for such a covenant to be established as the result of the prospective bridegroom taking the initiative. The prospective bridegroom would travel from his father's house to the home of the prospective bride. There he would negotiate with the father of the young woman to determine the price (mohar) that he must pay to purchase his bride. Once the bridegroom paid the purchase price, the marriage covenant was thereby established, and the young man and woman were regarded to be husband and wife. From that moment on the bride was declared to be consecrated or sanctified, set apart exclusively for her bridegroom. As a symbol of the covenant relationship that had been established, the groom and bride would drink from a cup of wine over which a betrothal benediction had been pronounced.

After the marriage covenant had been established, the groom would leave the home of the bride and return to his father's house. There he would remain separate from his bride for a period of twelve months. This period of separation afforded the bride time to gather her tousseau and to prepare for married life. The groom occupied himself with the preparation of living accommodations in his father's house to which he could bring his bride.

At the end of the period of separation the groom would come to take his bride to live with him. The taking of the bride usually took place at night. The groom, best man and other male escorts would leave the groom's father's house and conduct a torch light procession to the home of the bride. Although the bride was expecting her groom to come for her, she did not know the exact time of his coming. As a result the groom's arrival would be preceded by a shout. This shout would forewarn the bride to be prepared for the coming of the groom.

After the groom received his bride together with her female attendants, the enlarged wedding party would return from the bride's home to the groom's father's house. Upon arrival there the wedding party would find that the wedding guests had assembled already.

Shortly after arrival the bride and groom would be escorted by the other members of the wedding party to the bridal chamber (huppah). Prior to entering the chamber the bride remained veiled so that no one could see her face. While the groomsmen and bridesmaids would wait outside, the bride and groom would enter the bridal chamber alone. There in the privacy of that place they would enter into physical union for the first time, thereby consummating the marriage that had been covenanted earlier.

After the marriage was consummated, the groom would announce the consummation to the other members of the wedding party waiting outside the chamber (John 3:29). These people would pass on the news of the marital union to the wedding guesst. Upon receiving this good news the wedding guests would feast and make merry for the next seven days.

During the seven days of the wedding festivities, which were sometimes called "the seven days of huppah," the bride remained hidden in the bridal chamber. At the conclusion of these seven days the groom would bring his bride out of the bridal chamber, now with her veil removed, so that all could see who his bride was.

THE EXAMINATION OF THE ANALOGY

Earlier it was stated that in His promise in John 14, Jesus drew an analogy from Jewish marriage customs in biblical times. Now that the marriage customs have been considered, it is essential that the analogy be examined. In what ways was Jesus' promise analogous with Jewish marriage customs?

In the examination of the analogy the first thing that should be noted is the fact that the Scriptures regard the Church to be the Bride of Christ (Eph. 5:22-23). In addition, just as the Jewish bridegroom took the initiative in marriage by leaving his father's house and traveling to the home of the prospective bride, so Jesus left his Father's house in heaven and traveled to earth, the home of His prospective Church, over 1900 years ago.

In the same manner as the Jewish bridegroom came to the bride's home for the purpose of obtaining her through the establishment of a marriage covenant, so Jesus came to earth for the purpose of obtaining the Church through the establishment of a covenant. On the same night in which Jesus made His promise in John 14 He instituted communion. As He passed the cup of wine to His disciples, He said: "This cup is the new covenant in my blood." (NASV, 1 Cor. 11:25). This was His way of saying that He would establish a new covenant through the shedding of His blood on the cross.

Parallel to the custom of the Jewish groom paying a price to purchase his bride, Jesus paid a price to purchase His Bride, the Church. The price that He paid was His own life's blood. It was because of this purchase price that Paul wrote the following to members of the Church: "do you not know... that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price; therefore glorify God in your body". (NASV, 1 Cor. 6:19-20).

Anagolous with the Jewish bride being declared to be sanctified or set apart exclusively for her groom once the marriage covenant was established, the Church has been declared to be sanctified or set apart exclusively for Christ (Eph. 5:25-27; 1 Cor. 1:2, 6:11; Heb. 10:10; 13:12).

In the same way that a cup of wine served as a symbol of marriage covenant through which the Jewish groom obtained his bride, so the cup of communion serves as the symbol of the covenant through which Christ has obtained the Church (1 Cor. 11:25).

Just as the Jewish groom left the home of his bride and returned to his father's house after the marriage covenant had been established, so Jesus returned to His Father's house in heaven after He had established the new covenant and risen from the dead (John 6:62; 20:17).

In correspondence with the period of separation between the Jewish groom and bride, Christ has remained separate from the Church for over 1900 years. The Church is now living in that period of separation.

Parallel to the custom of the Jewish groom preparing living accommodations for his bride in his father's house during the time of separation, Christ has been preparing living accommodations for the Church in His Father's house in heaven during His separation from His Bride (John 14:20).

In the same manner as the Jewish groom came to take his bride to live with him at the end of the period of separation, so Christ will come to take the Church to live with Him at the end of His period of separation from the Church (John 14:3).

Just as the taking of the Jewish bride was accomplished by a procession of the groom and male escorts from the groom's father's house to the home of the bride, so the taking of the Church will be accomplished by a procession of Christ and an angelic escort from Christ's Father's house in heaven to the home of the Church (1 Thess. 4:16).

Analogous with the Jewish bride not knowing the exact time of the groom's coming for her the Church does not know the exact time of Christ's coming for her.

In the same way that the Jewish groom's arrival was preceded by a shout, so Christ's arrival to take the Church will be preceded by a shout (1 Thess. 4:16).

Similar to the Jewish bride's return with the groom to his father' house after her departure from her home, the Church will return with Christ to His Father's house in heaven after she is snatched from the earth to meet Him in the air (1 Thess. 4:17; John 14:2-3).

In the same manner as the Jewish wedding party found wedding guests assembled in the groom's father's house when they arrived, so Christ and the Church will find the souls of old Testament saints assembled in heaven when they arrive. These souls will serve as the wedding guests.
Parallel to the custom of the Jewish groom and bride entering into physical union after their arrival at the groom's father's house, thereby consummating the marriage that had been covenanted earlier, Christ and the Church will experience spiritual union after their arrival at His Father's house in heaven, thereby consummating their relationship that had been covenanted earlier.

In correspondence with the Jewish bride remaining hidden in the bridal chamber for a period of seven days after arrival at the groom's father's house, the Church will remain hidden for a period of seven years after arrival at Christ's Father's house in heaven. While the seven year Tribulation Period is taking place on the earth, the Church will be in heaven totally hidden from the sight of those living on the earth.

Just as the Jewish groom brought his bride out of the bridal chamber at the conclusion of the seven days with her veil removed, so that all could see who his bride was, so Christ will bring the Church out of heaven in His Second Coming at the conclusion of the seven year Tribulation Period in full view of all who are alive, so that all can see who the true Church is (Col. 3:4).
God bless!

Written by,
Dr. Renald Showers, Chairman of the Pastoral Studies Dept.
Philadelphia College of Bible (year unknown)

Distributed by,
The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry, Inc., W. Collingswood, N.J.

 

More on this subject. Author unknown.

As you may know, we are the bride of Christ.
It is in the context of the Hebrew wedding custom that this passage must be understood. The specific reference is in section 9 below, but I typed out the entire relevant sections from " The Seven Festivals of the Messiah" by Edward Chumney Copyright 1994-occasional page copying for personal or group study approved. Because there are some interesting things to see when you consider scripture in the light of a marriage covenant.

There are 12 steps in the Hebrew wedding ceremony.

1. The selection of the bride.

The bride was usually chosen by the Father of the bridegroom. The Father would send his trusted servant, known as the agent of the Father, to search out the bride. An excellent example of this can be seen in Genesis 24.
In this chapter, Abraham(a type of God the Father) wishes to secure a bride for Isaac ( a type of Messiah {Christ})and sends his servant Eliezer (a type of the Holy Spirit { Ruach HaKodesh}) to do this task (Gen 24:2-4; 15:2).
It is the role of the Holy Spirit (Ruach HaKodesh) to convict the world of sin and lead them to God(John 16:7-8). Just as the bride was usually chosen by the Father of the bridegroom, so the believers in Messiah are chosen by God (John 15:16). The bridegroom chose the bride and lavished his love upon her and she returned his love. This can be seen in Ephesians 5:25, as it is written, "Husbands love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave Himself for it." In Genesis 24,Rebekah(Rivkah) consented to marry Isaac (Yitzchak) even before she ever met him. Today, the believers in the Messiah Yeshua consent to become the bride of Messiah even though we have never seen Him.
1st Peter 1:8 speaks of this, as it is written, "Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now you see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory."

2. A bride price was established.

A price would have to be paid for the bride.
The agreed upon price was called a mohar in Hebrew. Yeshua, being our bridegroom, paid a very high price for His bride, the body of believers. The price He paid was His life.
Yeshua considered the price He had to pay for His bride before His death as He went to the Garden of Gethsemane to pray in Matthew 26:39,as it is written, "And He went a little farther, and fell flat on His face, and prayed saying, O My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from Me: nevertheless not as I will, but as Thou wilt." Yeshua was in essence saying, "Father ,You have chosen this bride and I have agreed to the terms, but do you realize the price that is being asked for her?" Our mohar, our bride price, was His life. 1St Peter 1:18-19 says, "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot."

In 1st Corinthians 6:20 it is written, "For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's."

3. The Bride and Groom are betrothed to each other.

This is the first stage of marriage known as kiddushin. I have spoken at length about betrothal in chapter 6, concerning Shavuot.
( Text from chapter 6 below) Remember , betrothal is the first of two steps in the marriage process. Betrothal in Hebrew is known as erusin or kiddushin. Betrothal legally binds the bride and the groom together in a marriage contract, except they do not physically live together. Historically, God betrothed Himself to Israel at Mt. Sinai (Jeremiah 2:2;Hosea 2:19-20). Whenever you accept the Messiah into your heart and life, you become betrothed to Him while living on the earth.

4. A written document is drawn up, known as a ketubah.

This betrothal contract is called in Hebrew, a shitre erusin. The ketubah is the marriage contract that states the bride price, the promises of the groom, and the rights of the bride. The word ketubah means "that which is written." The groom promised to work for her, to honor, support, and maintain her in truth, to provide food, clothing, and necessities, and to live together with her as husband and wife.
The ketubah was the unalienable right of the bride. The ketubah must be executed and signed prior to the wedding ceremony. The bible is the believer's ketubah . All the promises that God provided for the believers in Messiah are legally ours, as it is written in 2nd Corinthians 1:20,

" For all the promises of God in Him are yea, and in Him Amen..."

5.The bride must give her consent.

As we saw in chapter 6 (below),which dealt with Shavuot (Pentecost),God betrothed Himself to Israel at Mt.Sinai as stated in Jeremiah 2:2. Israel consented to the marriage proposal from God and said, "I do," as it is written in Exodus24:3. Likewise, the personal application (halacha) to those who desire the Messiah to come into their hearts and lives is to accept His invitation to do so by faith(emunah),as it is written in Romans 10:8-10:

"What, then, does it say? The word is near you in your mouth and in your heart: that is the word about trust( emunah) which we proclaim, namely, that if you acknowledge publicly with your mouth that Yeshua is Lord and trust in your heart that god raised Him from the dead, you will be delivered. For with the heart one goes on trusting and thus continues toward righteousness, while with the mouth one keeps on making public acknowledgements and thus continues towards deliverance (Romans 10:8-10 Jewish New Testament version).
So even today, to become the bride of Messiah you must still say "I do" to Him.

6. Gifts were given to the bride and a cup called the cup of the covenant was shared between the bride and groom.

The rite of betrothal (erusin) is completed when the groom gives something of value to the bride and she accepts it. The gift most often given today is the ring. When the groom places the ring on the bride's finger, the rite of betrothal is completed. This completed rite is known in the Hebrew as kiddushin, which means "sanctification."

The gifts to the bride are symbols of love, commitment, and loyalty. The gift God gives to those who accept the Messiah is the Holy Spirit ( Ruach HaKodesh) (John 14:26; 15:26-27;Acts 2:38;2 Corinthians 1;21-22).

When Yeshua ascended to heaven, He gave gifts to men(Ephesians 4:7-8).These gifts included righteousness(Romans 5:17-18),eternal life(Romans 6:23),grace (Romans 5:12,14-15),faith(Ephesians 2:8-9,and other spiritual gifts(1 Corinthians 12:1,4). These included wisdom, knowledge ,healing, the working of miracles, prophecy, the discerning of spirits, tongues, and interpretation of tongues(1 Corinthians 12:8-11),as well as the gifts of helps and administration(1 Corinthians 12:28).

In addition, at this time the cup of the covenant was shared and sealed between the bride and the groom with the drinking of the wine. In doing so, the couple drinks from a common cup. The cup is first given to the groom to sip, and then is given to the bride.

This cup, known as the cup of the covenant is spoken of in Jeremiah 31:31-33,as it is written, "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which My covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: but this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, i will put my law in their inward parts, and write
it in their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. Jeremiah 31:31-33
Yeshua spoke of the cup of the New Covenant in Luke 22:20

7. The bride had a mikvah (water immersion),which is a ritual of cleansing.

Mikvah is a Hebrew word that means "pool" or "body of water." Mikvah is a ceremonial act of purification by the immersion in water. Indicates a separation from a former way to a new way. In the case of marriage, it indicates leaving an old life for a new life with your spouse (Genesis 2:23-24;Ephesians 5:31).

Immersing in the mikvah is considered spiritual rebirth. The reason is that a mikvah has the power to change a person completely. Concerning the marriage to Israel at Mt.Sinai, God said in Ezekiel 16:8-9,as it is written,"...I sware unto thee, and entered into covenant with thee...and thou becamest Mine. Then washed I thee with water..." The washing, or immersion here refers to that of Israel before the people received the Torah when God betrothed Himself to Israel at Mt.Sinai (Exodus 19:14-15).Yeshua spoke to the Pharisee, Nicodemus, that he must be born anew (immersed) to enter the kingdom of God (John 3:1-7)The believers in the Messiah are to be immersed in the name of Yeshua (Acts 19:4). The Holy Spirit is the immerser of God (Luke 3:16;Acts 1:5;11:15-16).

8.The bridegroom departed, going back to his father's house to prepare the bridal chamber.

At this point the bridegroom leaves for his father's house to prepare the bridal chamber for his bride. It was understood to be the man's duty to go away to be with his father, build a house, and prepare for the eventual wedding. Before he goes, though, he will make a statement to the bride. "I go to prepare a place for you; if I go, I will return again to you."
This is the same statement Yeshua made in John 14:1-3 before He went to His father's house in heaven, as it is written:

"Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
John 14:1-3

9. The bride was consecrated and set apart for a period of time while the bridegroom was away building the house.

Before the bridegroom could go and get the bride, the groom's father had to be satisfied that every preparation had been made by the son. Only then could he give permission to the son to go and get the bride. In other words, while the bridegroom was working on the bridal chamber, it was the father who "okayed" the final bridal chamber. The bridegroom did not know when his father would declare the bridal chamber fit and send him to go get his bride. This is exactly what Yeshua is referring to in Mark 13:32-37
(and Matthew 24:36).

Meanwhile the bride was to wait eagerly for the return of the bridegroom. In the mind of the bride, the bridegroom could come at any time, even in the middle of the night or at midnight. Therefore she had to be ready at all times. Yeshua referred to this in Mark 13:32-37 and Matthew 25:1-13. While waiting eagerly for her bridegroom to come, the bride had to have thought to herself, "Is he really coming back for me? Is he really going to keep his word?" This was the thought that Peter answered in 2nd Peter 3:1-13.

10. The bridegroom would return with a shout, "Behold ,the bridegroom comes" and the sound of the ram's horn(shofar) would be blown.

The time of the return of the bridegroom was usually at midnight. When the bridegroom did come, he came with a shout(Matthew 25:6) and with the blowing of a shofar (trumpet)(1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; Revelation 4:1). The marriage between the bride and groom will take place under the chupah or wedding canopy. Since Heaven is a type of chupah, we can see that when Yeshua gives a shout for His bride, accompanied by the blowing of the shofar (trumpet), the marriage between Yeshua and His bride will take place in heaven.

The marriage ceremony will have a sacred procession. for this reason, the bridegroom(Yeshua)will be led to the chupah first. When the bridegroom approaches the chupah , the cantor chants, "Blessed is he who comes." " Blessed is he who comes" is an idiomatic expression meaning "welcome."
Yeshua said that he would not return for His bride until these words were said(Matthew 23:39). The groom is greeted like a king under the chupah , which is heaven.

11. He would abduct his bride, usually in the middle of the night, to go to the bridal chamber where the marriage would be consummated. This is the full marriage, known in Hebrew as nesu'in.

The bride and groom will go to the wedding chamber, or chadar in Hebrew, where the marriage will be consummated. They will stay in that wedding chamber for seven days, or a week. At the end of the seven days, the bride and groom will come out from the wedding chamber. This can be seen in Joel 2:16.

The word week in Hebrew is shavuah. It means a "seven." It can mean seven days or seven years. An example of the Hebrew word for week( shavuah) meaning seven years can be found in Daniel 9:24,as it is written, "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people..."and in 9:27,"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week..."

The week referred to in Daniel 9:27is known to bible believers as the tribulation period. The Jewish people understand this time to be the birthpangs of the Messiah known in Hebrew eschatology as the Chevlai shel Mashiach.

This is taken from Jeremiah30:5-7. From this we can see that the believers in the Messiah will be with the Messiah in heaven for His wedding while the earth will be experiencing the seven year tribulation period, or the Chevlai shel Mashiach.

12. finally, there would be a marriage supper for all the guests invited by the father of the bridegroom.

The bride and groom would be in the bridal chamber for seven days. When the bride and the groom initially went into the wedding chamber, the friend of the bridegroom stood outside the door. All the assembled guests of the wedding gathered outside, waiting for the friend of the bridegroom to announce the consummation of the marriage, which was relayed to him by the groom. John the Baptist referred to this in John 3:29. At this signal, great rejoicing broke forth (john 3:29).

The marriage was consummated on the first night (Genesis 29:23). The bloodstained linen from this night was preserved. It was proof of the bride's virginity(Deuteronomy 22:13-21).
On the wedding day, the bridegroom is seen as a king and the bride as a queen. During the consummation of the marriage, the bridegroom (Yeshua) will be crowned King over all the earth and the bride(the believers in Yeshua, the Messiah) will live with Him and rule with Him forever. The crowning of the King and the marriage can be seen in Isaiah 62:3-7. At the end of the week(seven year tribulation, or birth-pangs of the Messiah),the marriage supper will take place. After the marriage the bride and Groom will return to earth. Only the invited guests of the Father of the Groom (God the Father) will be present at the banquet meal. This can be seen in Revelation 19:7-16 and 20:4. Yeshua spoke of the marriage supper and the banquet in Luke 12:35-38 and Matthew 8:11.

 

APuritanMindset: "This doesn't make sense though because the elect are still taken up AFTER the time of tribulation."

You are confusing what i said (and proved from the Bible)
with your misconception. Yes, my truth and your misconception
together do not make sense.

BTW, there are two sets of God's elect:

1. the Israeli Jewish elect church
2. the Church Age, mostly gentile, born-again
regenerated redeamed elect church

Careful not to get the two confused.
The tribulation period is designed to maximize the
number of Israeli Jewish elect church members to
be saved. The Church Age, mostly gentile, born-again
regenerated redeamed elect church exit this world
at the end of the Church Age, the rapture, which begins
the tribulation period.

 

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Here is an analogy that you might find interesting, and I am sure that many of you have heard of this before.

"The Jewish Wedding Analogy of John 14:1-3!"
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Amen!!! JackRus. I thought of mentioning this too and I am soo glad you did. I didn't because it is not scripture, so I thought most might not appreciate it. I have learned about this, and I find it fascinating! This in no way proves the pre-trib rapture is the truth for me, as the Lord has shown me this truth through study of the scriptures and prayer, but this only helps to confirm it all the more. It is a beautiful representation of the truth. Thank you for sharing it.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

So if the seals of revelation are God's wrath, then you must believe that the martyrdom of believers is caused and carried out as a function of God's wrath. Why are believers then the subject of His wrath? I thought we were NOT destined for wrath. Which is it? Either the seals are God's wrath (as you believe) or they are not. You can't have it both ways.

Consider what scripture says:

"Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been KILLED FOR THE WORD OF GOD, and FOR THE TESTIMONY OF THE LAMB which they had.
Rev 6:10 They cried with a loud voice, saying, "HOW LONG, Master, the holy and true, UNTIL you judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"

Apparently, those who are killed as a result of the first five seals don't believe they are the subject of God's wrath. In fact, they CLEARLY ask : HOW LONG UNTIL YOU JUDGE???!!!???

Conclusion: God's wrath has not yet begun according to the scripture.

And interestingly enough by comparing the sixth seal with Matt. 24 we find the EXACT SAME sequence of events:

1) Great Tribulation
2) Martyrdom of believers (Jesus was talking to BELIEVERS IN HIM in Matt 24)
3) Triple sign in the sun moon and stars
4) Gathering of the elect. Christ sends forth the angels in Matt 24 and in Rev 7:9-17 we see the results of the gathering (Rapture), all believers delivered from the Great Tribulation (not God's wrath), in heaven praising God for His deliverance of them.
5) Judgements of God begin with the first trumpets.

and so on...

Either the seals are God's wrath or they aren't. Which is it pre-tribbers?

 

Danrusdad: "So if the seals of revelation are God's wrath, then you must believe that the martyrdom of believers is caused and carried out as a function of God's wrath."

Greetings Brother Danrusdad. I see you are still trying
to prove that since you are confused between what
is pretrib rapture teaching and postrib rapture
teaching (or pre-wrath, or whatever, hard to figure you out
you swing like a gate) that your viewpoint is correct.
Sorry, that is not logical.

The seals of revelation are God's beginning judgement
upon the earth. They start at the pretribulation
rapute/resurrection. The scene of the church age saints
in chapter 7 is those who have "come out of"
the tribulation by being rescued from it by God.

 

--------------------------------------------------
Why are believers then the subject of His wrath? I thought we were NOT destined for wrath. Which is it? Either the seals are God's wrath (as you believe) or they are not. You can't have it both ways.
--------------------------------------------------


Because, most likely those who are martyred during tribulation are Jews, or those who did not believe prior to the judgement, but then were brought to repentance during it. Please read this:


Revelation 7

1. And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3. Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5. Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6. Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7. Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8. Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
9. After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10. And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12. Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14. And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.


I also would not doubt, that the lukewarm type church that is living just prior to the tribulation will go through the tribulation, as it seems as though they do not yet believe, but only have head knowledge and are not yet saved. I say this because the Lord has said this:


Revelation 3
14. And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; these things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15. I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18. I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


These are people that have not asked the Lord to come into their heart yet, and only have the appearance of being christian, yet are not. Maybe I am wrong, but I know this, those who are saved, are never spewed out of the mouth of the Lord, as He has said, I will never leave you, nor forsake you. This is the person who thinks they are a christian, but works have not followed, and they will be chastened to repentance in this life, whether they must go through the tribulation, or prior to the tribulation. This person will experience judgement in the flesh, in order to bring them to salvation, before it is too late. Unbelievably, many choose not to.


If you notice, the whole book of Revelation is about the wrath of God on wicked mankind. We continually see God's mercy and grace, even through these judgements, as God desires men to repent, but they do not.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Except that, the sealing of the 144,000 happens clearly AFTER the 6th seal. Revelation should be taken in a chronological fashion unless the scripture clearly indicates otherwise. There is no textual indication of this. Further, nowhere does it say that the martyrs are only Jewish converts. This is simply added to scripture to support your belief.

My point still stands: if the seals are part of God's wrath, then He is responsible for the martyrs. Further, the martyrs OWN TESTIMONY is that God's wrath had NOT YET begun by the end of the 5th seal. Nothing you have posted from scripture contradicts either of these points.

 

Also, where in scripture does it say that ALL of Revelation is about God's wrath on an unbelieving world? His wrath is not even mentioned until the 6th seal! What is your SCRIPTURAL support fot this claim?

 

Amen, Sister Michelle -- you are on a roll!