What Biblical Basis is there...

Also, so far, no one answer my question: Where a verse in the Bible saying, Jesus will come again before tribulation period.

I am still waiting for you to prove a verse to us.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

michelle,

why not you give these answers to danraus dad, deafpostrib they are still waiting on you to prove a verse to them.

it seems to me that you not give me clealy answer where a verse in the bible saying before tribualtion peroid ?

 

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it seems to me that you not give me clealy answer where a verse in the bible saying before tribualtion peroid ?
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I have in this very thread. Go back and read the posts. Secondly, can you please find for me a verse in the scriptures that says directly that God is a trinity? It is an english word, that sums up the truth, just like the rapture. God in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Just as the rapture is the gathering together of those who have died in Christ (alseep) and those who are alive and remain, shall be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER to MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR, and there we shall FOREVER BE WITH OUR LORD.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Michelle,

I am INTERESTING to see you to showing us verses to answer danrusdad's questions, also to answer my question with verse, please.

Michelle, do 1 Thess. 4:15-17 saying, it will be occur 3 1/2 years or 7 years earlier BEFORE second coming? Or, do 1 Thess. 4:15-17 saying it will be occur before tribulation??

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

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Michelle, do 1 Thess. 4:15-17 saying, it will be occur 3 1/2 years or 7 years earlier BEFORE second coming? Or, do 1 Thess. 4:15-17 saying it will be occur before tribulation??
--------------------------------------------------


What do the scriptures say, when you rightly divide the word of truth, with their proper contexts? Once you do this, you will then see. Also, do not forget to separate Israel from the church. This you also do not do, as you should.


I just want you to know, that this subject in no way is cause for me to argue with you, or to get angry over. For some reason, some people just cannot see this, and it always causes these type of discussions, which is why I said it can hinder fellowship with one another. But, as long as one believes in the rapture, that is good, and commendable. It is rather those who do not believe the rapture, that can be dangerous and wrong thinking. So, until the Lord shows us otherwise, we can agree to disagree on this point. God bless you. I will try at some later point to better show you, if you so desire. I just cannot do it right now. Okay?

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Michelle,
You have got this so right!

 

How have deafpost and I confused Israel and the church? Where in my posts have I even mentioned it?

I simply want the verse that calls the 70th week of Daniel 'the tribulation period'.

I simply want the verse that says the 'tribulation' is the same thing as God's wrath.

Jesus makes it plain, tribulation is what the world does to His followers and wrath is what God does to His enemies. Yet, you equate the two. I would like to know on what basis from scripture.

I have no problems with the logic of pre-tribism. The conclusion is valid and the argument sound:
1) The tribulation is God's wrath against mankind.
2) This time of judging lasts for 7 years
3) The church is promised divine rescue from the wrath of God; therefore,
4) Comclusion, the rapture must be pre-tribulational.

The problem is not with the logic, the problem is with the starting assumptions. Namely, 70th week = 'tribulation period' = wrath of God. It is exactly these assumptions that you cannot support scripturally. I can say:

1) All dogs are purple animals.
2) All purple animals eat only Italian food
therefore
3) All dogs eat only Italian food.

You see, the logic is sound, it's the assumption that's wrong.

IF the 70th week = the 'tribulation'. And IF the 'tribulation' = the wrath of God. THEN, the rapture is pre-trib. However, you FIRST have to jusify your assumptions from scripture. I have yet to see a pre-tribber do this. If, as you claim, you have done this on this thread, for the sake of us slow learners please cut-and-paste the scriptures references that show this.

PS I'm not sure how you think we are confusing Israel and the church. Can you be more specific? I readily see that God has different plans for the church, Israel, and the rest of the unbelieving world. But I see no scriptural justification that the must be separated in time or cannot run concurrently...

 

Michelle,

I don't think either Post or I are upset at all. So please don't take our posts in an emotional sense. Personally, I just know and see too many pre-tribs who simply toe the party line, because it is what their church teaches or what they have learned from reading books, etc. Most can even point out several verse. However, when challenges are brought against it, it's always the challengers who 'don't see' or 'don't understand'. Rarely do I meet a pre-tribber who will ever question their own belief or demonstrate scriptural refutation of a post-trib/pre-wrath belief. It usually degenerates into a lot of 'explaining' and 'interpretation' instead of black on white scripture.

 

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Notice the 70 weeks are for 'thy people' (Israel) and 'thy holy city' (Jerusalem). Verse 25 mentions 7 weeks and then 'threescore and two weeks' (62) before 'Messiah be cut off'. Thus the first 69 weeks were completed when Jesus was crucified. That only leaves the one week remaining.

Vs 27, And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease

The 'he' is the Antichrist, and we see he makes a convenant with Israel for one week but in the middle of the week, breaks the convenant, stands in the temple and proclaims himself as God.

In Matt. 24:15-22, Jesus himself tells us this begins the period of 'Great Tribulation'.

Thus, we can rightfully conclude that if the middle of the 70th week is the start of the 'Great Tribulation' then the 70th week = the 'tribulation' period.

 

Amen, Brother Michael Hobbs - Preach it!

 

michelle hobbs,

1. God's wrath is on unbleiver group for receving mark of the beast for 3 1/2 years

2. does it bible saying judge for last 7 years

3. does the bible saying church will resuce or miss out of great tribulation peroid ?

4. does the bible saying rapture will occur before tribulation ?

 

I do think there is a rapture somewhere before or mid-trib, but a pre-trib would probably answer you that Luke was also referring to what happened in AD70 just as Mathew 24 was. Notice earlier in the same chapter:

Luke 21:20: When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22. For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. (NIV) etc. etc.


It will be said that this was the warning from Christ as to what was about to happen. The same as Mathew 24 when he says "This generation shall not pass. . . " (or something to that effect.) Personally, I have relied on the teachings of greater minds than mine, but to me these scriptures all seem to appear to be talking about the destruction of AD70.

Also, the Bible mentions one man in bed, one man taken, a woman in the field left, one taken, etc. (One half gone.) History shows that in AD70 approximately 50% of the Jewish population were killed or taken. Is this really a rapture? Or a prophecy, yet to come in Jesus' time?

I don't know...I'm asking too.

 

Ed, Since I am not that up to speed on this and have taken the word of pastors for many years; let me take the low road just to see your answer. I admit that I am over my head and obviously Michelle will kill me on this one (and I hope she does--because honestly I am only taking this position to get answers.)

Okay, you have quoted a statement that time is irrelevant to God. Fine and dandy, no problem there because God is outside of our time-space universe. However, when the angel speaks to John, he is speaking to a man for men to understand. Why would he even bother to say "shortly" if the Bible is clear that time does not matter?

 

No, your conclusion doesn't follow. Jesus ONLY spoke of a Great Tribulation that starts at the midpoint. But that in no way justifies you calling the entire 70th week 'the tribulation'. There is scriptural support for the Great Tribulation, but you have shown no scripture that calls the 70th week 'the tribulation'. This is a pre-trib, man-made description found NOWEHERE in scripture. 'We can rightfully conclude' is far dfferent than, 'the Bible says.'

Further, the 70th week = 'the tribulation' is only one assumption that you must justify. You must also show that tribulation = the wrath of God. This also you cannot do. The scripture is clear: tribulation is what the WORLD does to BELIEVERS, and wrath is what GOD does to UNBELIEVERS. There is no equivocation of the two in scripture.

Also, this pre-trib belief that God can only deal with Israel OR the church, but not both during the same time is also bogus. There is no scripture that precludes God from having concurrent plans running at the same time or overlapping. In fact scripture shows just the opposite. Consider, Jesus predicted that the temple would be destroyed during the 'dispensation' before the church age. However, we know that this did not happen until AFTER the 'dispensation' of the 'church age' had begun. The two plans and time periods overlap. There is nothing that says that they can't. This idea that God only works with one group at a time is dispensationalism taken to an extreme. All through the scriptures, God has different plans for His people and for the world in general that happen concurrently. The only difference in the end-times is that He has added a new group: the church.

 

The midpoint of what? Daniel's 70th week. Some refer to this week of 7 years as the 'Tribulation' period. There is no direct reference in Bible of 'Church age' but we all understand it to mean the distinct time period we are in. If its OK to call the time when the Church exists, the Church Age, why not call the time of Great Tribulation, the Tribulation Period?

First, there is more than one type or meaning to 'tribulation' in the Bible. Look at 2 Thess 1:4-10. Here we see a contrast between those tribulations which have been experienced by Christians from the time of John the Baptist to the present with the Tribulation coming upon the earth in Daniel's 70TH Week. Present-day persecution and tribulation (verse 4) is said to be a token (verse 5) of that which God will recompense to those who trouble His churches (verse 6).
The phrase 'wrath of God' appears 10 times in the KJV, 5 of which are in Revelation (14:10, 14:19, 15:1, 15:7, 16:1). There is also the phrases, 'wrath of the Lamb' (6:16) and 'wrath of Almighty God' (19:15). Notice also the number of references to the winepress of God (14:19, 14:20, 19:15). I believe it is safe to say, the 'Tribulation' period will be when God's wrath is poured out upon the earth.

I don't think anyone has said that. While the Tribulaton period is occurring on earth, God will be dealing with the Church in Heaven. There will be the Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Cor. 5:10) and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (Matt. 26:29, Rev. 19:9).

It's interesting to note that after the Marriage Supper in Rev. 19, we see Jesus return and fight against the army of the Antichrist. Doesn't this pretty much prove beyond doubt that the post-trib view is wrong? After all, the tribulation is over once the Antichrist is thrown in the Lake of Fire (19:20)?

 

The Pre-Trib rapture is a "theory" deduced from a host of inductive inferences of numerous Scripture passages.

I believe it is invalid. A comparison of Matthew 24 and Revelation 6-7 is interesting.

Rufus

 

Amen, Brother Michael Hobbs -- Preach it!


The Five Tribulations
of the Holy Bible
Contrasted and compared
by ed

The following terms are used in the Holy Bible to denote
tribulation: tribulation, distress, afliction, trouble

1. tribulation due to the human condition
WHO: all the sons and daughters of Adam & Eve
WHAT: heartaches, pains, troubles, distresses, disappointements,
affliction, trouble, ordeal, suffering, wretchedness,
misfortune, worry, care, hardship, agony,
anguish, torment, adversity,
travail of a woman giving birth, disease, cancer,
famine, plague, fatigue, depression, etc.
WHEN: From Adam's explusion from the Garden of Eden
to the day a new heaven & new earth is created by
God, AKA: time as opposed to eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: God only knows why, it is just the way things are,
maybe it has to do with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden?

2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
WHO: those Christians chosen by the Holy Spirit for special honor
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
even people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: 33AD to the start of the millinnial kingdom of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: many are called to follow Jesus;
few are chosen to the honor of the spiritual
gift of martyrdom

3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
WHO: Yisrael dispersed among the goy
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
usually people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: during the time of the Gentiles
(from Mount Calvary to Mount Olivet)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Messiah Jesus

4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
WHO: citizens of the world
WHAT: a fate worse than death (Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:6)
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist
WHO: people who take the mark of the beast
WHAT: the wrath of God
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

Here are the names/descriptions of the Tribulation
Period found in the O.T.:

The tribulation in Deut 4:30
the day of Israel's calamity in Deut 32:35, Obadiah 1:12-14
the indignation in Isaiah 26:20, Daniel 11:36
the overflowing scourge in Isaiah 28:15,18
The Lord's strange work in Isaiah 28:21
The year of recompence in Isaiah 34:8
The day of vengeance in Isaiah 34:8, 35:4, 61:2
The time of Jacob's Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7
The day of darkness in Joel 2:2, Amos 5:18, 20; Zephaniah 1:15
See also Zephaniah 1:15-16.:

"tribulations" in KJV:

1Sa 10:19 (nKJV):
But you have today rejected your God, who Himself saved you from all your adversities and your tribulations; and you have said to Him, 'No, set a king over us!' Now therefore, present yourselves before the Lord by your tribes and by your clans."

3,000 years before the Tribulation Period, has to be:
1. tribulation due to the human condition

Ac 14:22 (nKJV):
strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, "We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God."

The Kingdom of God is with us, not all are persecuted,
must be the most likly:
1. tribulation due to the human condition

Ac 20:23 (nKJV):
except that the Holy Spirit testifies in every city, saying that chains and tribulations await me.

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

Ro 5:3 (nKJV):
And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance;

Most likely: Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition

2Co 6:4 (nKJV):
But in all things we commend ourselves as ministers of God: in much patience, in tribulations, in needs, in distresses,

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

Eph 3:13 (nKJV):
Therefore I ask that you do not lose heart at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.

Most likely: 1. tribulation due to the human condition

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

2Th 1:4 (nKJV):
so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure,

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

Heb 10:33 (nKJV):
partly while you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and tribulations, and partly while you became companions of those who were so treated

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles


"tribulation" in nKJV:

1Sa 26:24 (nKJV):
And indeed, as your life was valued much this day in my eyes, so let my life be valued much in the eyes of the Lord, and let Him deliver me out of all tribulation."

1. tribulation due to the human condition>
surley not 3,000+ years before futurists Trib Period
or 1,000+ years before before a-mill Trib Period

Mt 13:21 (nKJV):
yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

Most likely:
1. tribulation due to the human condition

Mt 24:9 (nKJV):
Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.

Got to be:
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
or 3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

Mt 24:21 (nKJV):
For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

This follows the AOD, it is: 5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist


Mt 24:29 (nKJV):
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

After 5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist, the Lord will come in power and glory to
defeat the Antichrist.

Mr 4:17 (nKJV):
and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word's sake, immediately they stumble.

Most likely: 2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom, which is persecution

Mr 13:19 (nKJV):
For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be.

This is a paralell Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) passage
refering to: 5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist

Mr 13:24 (nKJV):
"But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;

MOD, again: 5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist

Joh 16:33 (nKJV):
These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."

One of these: 1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
but not: 4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist

Ro 2:9 (nKJV):
tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;

Ro 5:3 (nKJV):
And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance;

Most likely, 1. tribulation due to the human condition, which happen to everybody

Ro 8:35 (nKJV):
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Could be any of the first three

Ro 12:12 (nKJV):
rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation, continuing steadfastly in prayer;

Most likely,m 1. tribulation due to the human condition, which happens to everybody

2Co 1:4 (nKJV):
who comforts us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort those who are in any trouble, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.

Most likely is the most common: 1. tribulation due to the human condition

2Co 7:4 (nKJV):
Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my boasting on your behalf. I am filled with comfort. I am exceedingly joyful in all our tribulation.

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
Paul was NOT in the tribulation periods.

1Th 3:4 (nKJV):
For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know.

Paul suffered from the three conditions:
Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
Paul did not suffer from either of the two tribulation periods:



2Th 1:6 (nKJV):
since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,

Why should God wait until the Tribulation Periods
to "repay"? Probably: 1. tribulation due to the human condition

Re 1:9 (nKJV):
I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
Paul did not suffer from either of the two tribulation periods

Re 2:9 (nKJV):
I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles


Re 2:10 (nKJV):
Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Likely: Could be any of the first three:
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
or 3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

Re 2:22 (nKJV):
Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.

Likely 1. tribulation due to the human condition

Re 7:14 (nKJV):
And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist.
These avoid great tribulation by being jerked out
of the world when Jesus comes to get His own.

 

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No, your conclusion doesn't follow. Jesus ONLY spoke of a Great Tribulation that starts at the midpoint. But that in no way justifies you calling the entire 70th week 'the tribulation'. There is scriptural support for the Great Tribulation, but you have shown no scripture that calls the 70th week 'the tribulation'. This is a pre-trib, man-made description found NOWEHERE in scripture. 'We can rightfully conclude' is far dfferent than, 'the Bible says.'
--------------------------------------------------

Sure it does. Right there in the book of Revelation, when Jesus Christ is the only one found worthy to take the book and loose the seals thereof. Each time Jesus opens a seal, judgement upon earth follows, as I have shown with the scriptures, on this very thread. You yourself, have admitted, that the last three and one half years are called the great tribulation. This is true, as it is the very severe judgements of God upon this earth in the birth pangs being spoken of. In any case, you cannot believe the church will still be on this earth, at that time, as God has promised the church she is not ORDAINED for God's wrath, but salvation in Jesus Christ.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Phillip,


Have you ever heard of Precepts Ministries? Wayne Barber is the Pastor, and it is located, I think, in Tennesse. He is a wonderful and godly man, funny too. He offers courses called Precept upon Precept, which covers a wide variety of studies in the Bible, and they are very in depth and very informative studies. I think that this would be a great blessing for you (and others here) to look into taking, ecspecially the study on Revelation. It is divided into 4 sections of study, and each section covers many weeks of study. I have been taking this course, for about a year now, and it has been a great blessing to me. I think you would very much like it, as they do use the NASB in this course, to which I know you have said you like and understand this version. I use the KJB, however as I find it most accurate. However, I have not come across anything that is remotely different, except for Rev. 19 where the NASB has rendered it the "righteous acts of the saints" rather than the "righteousness of the saints". If you are interested, you might want to see, if your church, or any church in your area offers this course. I do think you will find it a great blessing. Rather than relying upon what others have studied and teach, sometimes doing the study on your own, helps one to really understand, and feel confident about.

When the Lord first called me out, and saved my wretched soul, he did use the end times prophecies to bring me to him. As a new christian, I read the book of Revelation first, many times. As I grew, and read more of God's words, and referenced scripture with scripture, it became more clear. I still, because of reading many books concerning prophecy, became confused from my initial belief of pre-trib rapture. However, as I read the other views (mid and post) the Lord always brought me back to the pre-trib view. However, I still was not absolutely sure, as the other views can be quite convincing. Once I studied this myself, indepth (I thought I had but still more study on it was/is needed) and I started taking this course, it became very clear, without any doubt whatsoever. Personal study, and indepth study will and most definately will help you to be confident and sure about what God has said to us concerning this and based solely upon the scriptures, rather than man's opinions. I highly recommend this for you.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

There is much misunderstanding between 'tribulation' & 'wrath of God'. Tribulation does not equal with wrath of God.

1 Thess. 3:3-4 telling us, we are appointed for tribulation, because Christ suffered for us, os therefore, we ought follow Christ's example - 1 Peter 2:21.

Tribulation never so called, "seven years of Tribulation Period" in the Bible.

Church already been through tribulations since Early Church to today, and will be continued till Jesus comes with his angels.

2 Thess. 1:4-9 telling us, we shall not be rest from persecutions, tribulations TILL Jesus Christ shall come with his angels, obivously, we shall not be released from persecutions, and tribulations till second coming at the end of the age.

Matt. 24:29-31 is very clear tellingn us, Christ shall not come till AFTER tribulation.

Right now, Church is already face tribulations. So, therefore, Christ cannot come till we must go pass tribulations first.

But, we are not appointed for the wrath of God - 1 Thess. 1:10; & 5:9, because we received salvation through Jesus Christ. 1 Thess. 1:10; and 5:9 is not talking about ecapse from the tribulation, it is talking about not appoint us for the wrath of God, because we are saved through Jesus Christ through our faith.

Wrath of God is for send people to everlasting fire, because of not believing on Jesus Christ, and remain in sins.

Bible does not teaching us, that 'tribulation' equals with 'wrath of God'.

We are appointed for tribulations - 1 Thess. 3:3-4. Christ tells us, that we should be cheer while suffer tribulations, because Christ overcometh them - John 16:33.

Tribulation is NOT for God's wrath. Tribulations are for us as Christians, because Christ suffered on the cross for us, so, therefore, we ought follow Christ's example -1 Peter 2:21.

John 3:36 tells us, the wrath of God is abideth in person, because of not believing on Jesus Christ. Also, it speaks of the wrath of God stills upon a person for not believing on Christ is- shall send a person to everlasting fire. .

The Bible never saying, 'wrath of God' is so called, "seven year of Tribulation period".

The wrath of God is to send people to everlasting life, because of not believing on Christ, also, remain in sins without repent.

Also, there is NOT a single verse find in the book of Revelation saying, the wrath of God shall pour down upon A saint. Obivously, God knows how to deliver saints out from the wrath. Same with Hebrews in Egypt, while God poured ten plaques upon Egyptians, while all Hebrews were protected and peaceful same time.

There is no evidence find in the Bible saying, tribulation is so called, "seven year of Tribulation Period". We already experincing tribulations throughout many centuries since Early Church to today and will be continued through under the reign of Antichrist till Christ shall come with his angels.

We shall NOT be rest or to be released from the tribulations TILL Christ shall come with his angels in 2 Thess. 1:4-10, clearly, it telling us, Christ shall come with his angels right after tribulations. Same with Matt. 24:29-31 tell us, Christ shall come AFTER the tribulation, to gathering us together.

Again, I ask you the same question: Please show us WHERE a verse in the Bible saying Christ shall come BEFORE tribulation?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!