What Biblical Basis is there...

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1 Thess. 3:3-4 telling us, we are appointed for tribulation, because Christ suffered for us, os therefore, we ought follow Christ's example - 1 Peter 2:21.

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As Ed has so wonderfully shown in his last post, that tribulation does not equal tribulation period. The tribulation period covers the 70th week of Daniel in Daniel chapter 9. This is a week, to which equals 7 years, to which corresponds with not only the Day of the Lord, and the Day of Christ, but the time of Jacobs trouble, the beginning of sorrows, until the birth. That birth is the birth of the nation of Israel, thus ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED. The tribulation period is not what is being referred to when the Lord informs us saints that we will suffer tribulation. Not all saints suffer tribulation of martyrdom, but tribulations in life, whatever they may be. These are tribulations in our lives, that come because of our sharing Jesus Christ and his gospel with others. Just as Jesus sufferred this rejection, and mocking, and threat of death, we also, if we are living our lives in service to him and others, will most likely suffer the same. This is the point. Tribulation period is not speaking of this same thing, as this is the last days judgement upon earth meant for unbelievers who have rejected Jesus Christ, taken the mark and for Israel to come to repentance and realization that Jesus Christ is her Messiah, Saviour and King. THis is the birth that is being spoken of (Matt. 24,Rev. 12). Look at Ezekial 36-38. It has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CHURCH, as the church is a MYSTERY of God, and she is the FIRSTFRUITS of the resurrection. Those redeemed of Israel, at the end of the tribulation period who have endured to the end, are not included in the first resurrection, but the second death and reign as preists and kings on earth, as the church is, and is promised the first resurrection and we are always with the Lord. You need to understand God's plan and promises to Israel, and the differences between the church and Israel in order to understand prophecy. I fear you are very much neglecting to do this. Just as the Jews, neglected to recognize clear scriptures plainly indicating the gentiles would come into the fold, and that Messiah should suffer and die, many christians today also, are guilty of this same type of thing. We are to rightly divide the word of truth.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

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But, we are not appointed for the wrath of God - 1 Thess. 1:10; & 5:9, because we received salvation through Jesus Christ. 1 Thess. 1:10; and 5:9 is not talking about ecapse from the tribulation, it is talking about not appoint us for the wrath of God, because we are saved through Jesus Christ through our faith.

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Oh yes it is when you RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH. Take a look at:

Revelation 3

7. And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8. I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
13. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


This is the ONLY CHURCH that is promised to be KEPT FROM the hour of temptation. There was no fault found within this church. If you are a saved christian, you will be found in this church and kept from the hour of temptation which God tells us about here:


2 Thessalonians 2

1. Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2. That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4. Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6. And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9. Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12. That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14. Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15. Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
16. Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
17. Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.


Those who are saved and sanctified in the truth are NOT ORDAINED for the wrath of God BEING SPOKEN of as the day of the Lord, nor the hour of tempation which preceeds it.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

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We shall NOT be rest or to be released from the tribulations TILL Christ shall come with his angels in 2 Thess. 1:4-10, clearly, it telling us, Christ shall come with his angels right after tribulations. Same with Matt. 24:29-31 tell us, Christ shall come AFTER the tribulation, to gathering us together.
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Jesus CHrist returns with his saints, his church, his bride:


Zechariah 14

5. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.


Revelation 19


6. And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10. And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11. And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17. And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18. That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

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Again, I ask you the same question: Please show us WHERE a verse in the Bible saying Christ shall come BEFORE tribulation?

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He doesn't come to earth prior to his second coming. Rather Jesus Christ calls up to himself, those who are his:


1 Thess. 4

14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


John 14

1. Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.


1 Cor. 15

49. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56. The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

DeafPosttrib (and other post-trib's),

How do you explain the verses in Revelation 19 that show the Marriage Supper occurs before Christ returns to fight the Antichrist? Do post-tribs not believe in the Marriage Supper?

Rev. 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

I plan on being there and I hope you are too.

 

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Rev. 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
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Michael, I believe that the scriptures indicate that the marriage supper, is the same thing as the marriage feast or great supper of God, which takes place just as the Lord returns with the saints, and to which we see indicated, that it involves those dwelling on earth. The fowls of the air, from heaven are called to feast:

Revelation 19

17. And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18. That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Amen, Sister Michelle -- Preach it!

 

I'm back.

Michelle,

Daniel 9:24-27 never saying, 70th week is so called, "seven year of Tribulation period". The context of Dan. 9:24-27 talking about Messiah shall make a new covenant with many, it was already fulfilled through Jesus Christ by Calvary 490 years later after Daniel penned. Dan. 9:24-27 have do nothing with future seven year of Tribulation period. It is talking about the covenent that was already made by our Messiah through Calvary 2,000 years ago in Mark 14:24. Also, there is NO gap time between 69th and 70th week of Daniel 9:26-27. there is no over 2,000 years stretch as supposed of 490 years program in God's prophecy of the new covenant in verse 26-27. Verse 26 tells us, Christ was cut off AFTER 69th week, it speaks of Christ was killed by on the cross AFTER 69th week, obivously, Christ was killed DURING 70th week. Verse 27 tells us, Christ already make new covenant with many through calvary through his blood 2,000 years ago in Mark 13:24.

'All Israel shall be saved' of Romans 11:26. I understand Romans 11:26 very clear. We have to read the context of Romans chapter 11 talking about Olive tree. God removed unbelieving Jews from the tree, but remain believing Jews stay in the same tree, God added believing Gentiles unto tree to join with believing Jews together, SO... Romans 11:26 tells us, the RESULT of 'all Israel shall be saved' speak of both Gentiles and Jews shall be saved - being completed through Jesus Christ by Calvary.

You saying Ezekiel 36-38 have do nothing with Church. You could be correct saying it. Dispensationalists teaching Ezekiel 36-37 telling us, there shall be regathering Jews back to their land- Israel already fulfilled in year 1948 or 1967. I understand of Ezekiel chapter 37 - 'valley of dry bones', it speaks of future resurrection. I believe it is speak of future physical resurrection of Israel. It is not yet fulfilled. Right now, all of Christians are still buried in the graves. When Christ shall come again, all saints' body shall be resurrection, then Ezekiel chapter 36-37 shall be fulfilled for the purpose of gathering all saints together, but first the resurrection of the saints must be occured before the regathering come according to 1 Thess. 4:13-18.

I understand of Ezekiel chapter 38 and 39 talking about Gog & Magog speak of the future final battle of armageddon shall be occur on the last day of the age, by follow after the resurrection. How does I know?


Rev. 16:12-16 tells us, at the sixth vial, Euphrate River shall be dried up, allow Kings of East army march across dried Euphrate River, for the purpose of battle of armageddon. Then, Rev. 16:15 tells us, Christ shall come like as thief, that we must be watch and shall not be ashamed, obivously, Rev. 16:15 speaks of rapture. Rapture cannot come till the resurrection must occured first according 1 Thess. 4:16-17. THEN, after Christ gathering us together, and He shall fight against all armies - Rev. 16:16.

So, therefore, Ezekiel chapter 37 talking about the resurrection of Israel must be occured first before the battle of armageddon- Ezekiel chapter 38-39.

Rev. 3:10 does not prove us it is pretribulational.

Christ does not saying, 'hour of temptation' IS so called, "seven year of Tribulation period".

'Keep us from' does not mean that we shall be escape or OUT of, but, it means, to protect or guard us. Rev. 3:10 is same with John 17:15 says, "I pray not that thou shouldesttake them out of the world(sound like rapture huh?), but that thou shouldest KEEP them from the evil."

Christ tells us, that He prayed to His Father, that He does not want Father to take Christians out of the world, but, to keep Christians from the evil. I Understand what Christ was talking about. He tells us, He asked His Father, to take care of Christians while facing persecutions, trials, temptations(please see John 15:18-20- speak of persecutions upon Christians; John 16:33 tells us the same thing).

Bible never give us the promise that we shall escape from persecutions and tribulations. Bible teaches us, that we must suffer and go through much tribulations - John 16:33; Acts 14:22; and 1 Thess. 3:3-4.

Rev. 3:10 promises us, IF we keep His commandment, He shall protect us while facing the times of temptions. OR.... in other word, what if we do not keep His commandments, He will not protect us while face the times of temptations.

1 Corinthians 10:13 tells the same thing with Rev. 3:10, it says, "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able: BUT will with with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." God knows our weakeness areas. God does not allow greater temptations that we are facing. But, we are responisblity to escape while facing temptations.

Temptation is not a sin. Temptation is a test. Jesus Christ already face three temptations by Satan in the wilderness after His baptism. But, Christ already victory over Satan on temptations.

Joseph was a good example of 1 Corithians 10:13 in Genesis 39:7-13. When Joseph was in Egypt, the master's wife tempted Jospeh. She asked him, for sex. He refused. But, she does not give up on him, she kept on asking him the same thing day to day. He kept on stubborn and told no to her. Then, one day, she asked him the same thing, while same time, she touched Jospeh's garment, he fled immediated. Jospeh did the right thing, for to flee away from her, because he does not want to commit sinned against God.

Also, there is another reference verses with Rev. 3:10, it find in James 1:12, it says, "Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him."

Let's looking the comparing of James 1:12 with Rev. 3:10-11:

'tried'

James 1:12 - 'tried'
Rev. 3:10 - 'try'

'crown'

James 1:12 - 'crown'
Rev. 3:11 - 'crown'

Also, there is another reference for James 1:12 find in Rev. 2:10. It says, "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."

'tried'

James 1:12- 'tried'
Rev. 2:10 -'tried'

'crown of life'

James 1:12 - 'crown of life'
Rev. 2:10 -'crown of life'

Also, Rev. 2:10 is same as Rev. 3:10.

Rev. 3:10 promises us, IF we keep His commandment, He shall protect or guard us while facing the times of temptations.

Matthew Henry Commentary explains Rev. 3:10 very clear. It was written 300 years ago. It says, "By keeping the gospel they are prepared for the trial; and the same divine grace that has made them fruitful in times of peace will make them faithful in TIMES of persecution(emphasis mine)."

We do not have to wait for the coming 'hour of temptation' - so called, "seven year Tribulation Period". Early Church already faced temptations in their times. Even, throughout all centuries, all Christians already faced temptations. same with us of today's Christians, that we are facing temptations daily in our lifetime. Church of Philadelphia duirng John's time in year around 95 A.D. already faced their temptations. Christ already know that the Church of Philadelphia did kept Christ's commandment, so, therefore, Christ was actually protect them while facing temptations.

Rev. 3:10 say nothing about the resurrection, gathering, Christ's coming, wrath of God, etc.

Rev. 3:10 is talking about Christ's promise to us, IF we keep His commandment, He shall protect us while facing the temptations. Or, in other word, if we do not keep His Commandment, He shall not protect us while facing temptations, that mean, we shall face troubles and problems, and our life might be in a mess up, if we do not obey Christ's commandment.

Rev. 3:10 do nothing with the timing of Christ's coming. It is talking about TEMPTATION.

2 Thess. 2:1-3 tell us, our gathering together shall NOT come till we must see the first two things must to come to pass. Verse 3 tells us, our gathering together/day of Christ shall NOT come till we must see apostasy come first, and also the revealed of Antichrist. Obivously, 2 Thess. 2:3 cannot be pretribulational.

2 Thess. 2:10-15 telling us, Satan will doing great miracles and to deceived people to believe Satan's lies. The reason why God shall send a strong delusion(deceived or lies) to people, "because they receive NOT the love of the truth, that they might be saved" also, "who believed NOT the the truth, but had PLEASURE in unrighteousness." - vs. 10 & 12.

Verse 13 tells us, that we ought give thankful to God that we are chosen by God, by through sanctify us through God's Word, by called us of the gospel in Jesus Christ (vs. 14).

**** Verse 15 commands us, that we ought to STAND FAST, and HOLD the traditions which we have been learning, by God's Word. The reason, it commands us, to endure with God's word, and hold it, because 2 Thess. 2:3 tells us, many shall be falling away from the truth (according to 2 Timothy 4:3-4). Also, verse 15 commands us to hold the sound doctrines, because many shall not hold the sound doctrines, but will be easily deceived by believing the false doctrines, and misleading them through Satan's lies.

2 Thess. 2:1-17 do not prove us that we shall be rapture before tribulation. 2 Thess 2:1-8 tell us very clear, that our gathering together/day of Christ cannot come till we must see apostasy first, and then the revealed of Antichrist. Obivously, we already seeing apostasy is happening everywhere today. Then, the next big event yet to come, we shall face the revealed of Antichrist.

You quoted of Zechariah 14:5. This verse is very clear speak of the ONLY ONE FUTURE COMING, no other else.

Yes, Zech. 14:5 tells us. Christ shall come with his saints. I have no problem with it. Also, it is same with Jude 14.

Also, 1 Thess. 4:13-14 tell us, those who dead in Christ, "even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God BRING with him.", it speaks of thoese who dead in Christ, when Christ comes, the saints will come with Christ same time.

You discuss on Revelation 19:6-21.

You argue with me about the timing of the marriage of the Lamb is already in the heaven during seven year of Tribulaiton period prior Christ's coming.

I have no problem with Rev. 19:6-21.

Please look Rev. 19:1 says, "And AFTER THESE THINGS..." What it speaks of? It speak of John's vision of Babylon in Revelation chapter 17 and 18. Then, Rev. 19:1 says, "I hear a great voice of much people in heaven..." what John heard people's loud for? It says, "Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:" Why the people praise and clebration in the heaven?

Rev. 19:2-3 explain: "For true and righteous are his judgments; for he HATH JUDEGTH the great whore(Babylon of Revelation 17-18), which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenaged the blood of his servants at her hand. And again they said, Alleluia. (why? answerand HER SMOKE ROSE UP FORVER AND EVER."

The reason why the people praise and celebration in the heaven, because, Babylon is FALLEN, and destroyed.

Obivously, Rev. 19:1-3 is not yet occured, because Babylon is still exist and alive and very activity in the world today. Babylon is not yet judged.

So.... therefore, the marriage of the Lamb cannot be occured yet TILL Babylon must be destroyed, it must be at the end of tribulation, not DURING tribulation period!

Often, I hear old argument from pretribbers saying, rapture is not same as second coming. Because, Rapture - Christ, himself alone shall descend without ride on white horse. Second Coming - Christ shall come with his angels and saints riding on white horse.

I ask you, does Zechariah chapter 14 saying that Christ shall come by ride on the white horse???

Does Matthew 24:29-31 saying, Christ shall come by ride on the white horse???

There are so many details about the second coming in the Bible, yet, all of details are speak of the same event focus on the second coming at the end of the world/age.

White horse is not mentioned in Matthew 24:29-31, but it does not mean that it is being excluded from it. There are many details on the second advent, yet all are same event focus on Christ's coming.

Same with 1 Thess. 4:15-17 do not mentioned about white horse. But, it does not mean that white horse is being excluded from it. There so many details on Christ's coming.

There is the ONLY ONE passage that mentioned of Christ's coming as He shall ride on a white horse find in Revelation 19:11. No other refer anywhere in the Bible.

There nare so much overwhelming passages find in the Bible talking about second coming. All of these passages beside Rev. 19:11, do not mean that 'a white horse' is being excluded from all passages. Remember, there are so many details in the Bible telling us of Christ's coming. Yet, all of these focus on the only one future coming of Christ, no other else.

You mentioned of 1 Thess. 14-18. As you 'prove' of this passage telling us, Christ shall come before tribulation.

Yet, I do not see anywhere in the context of 1 Thess. 4:13-18 saying that Christ shall come BEFORE tribulation. Your 'prove' is very flawed.

1 Thess. 4:13-18 have do nothing with the timing of rapture. The context of 1 Thess. 4:13-18 talking about our concerning of our love ones, who already died in Christ, what will be happen to them. Paul urged them, do NOT be sorrow, be rejoice, that they will see their love ones again, when Christ shall come again, there shall be a GREAT REUNION DAY, that we shall see our love ones each other again.

Your answer of my question on 1 Thess. 4:13-18 is not the correct answer. You really need a SOLID clear verse to prove my question saying that Christ shall come BEFORE tribulation.

I know John 14:1-3 very, very well. That passage is a very popular used by pretribulationism doctrine.

Again, John 14:1-3 do nothing with the TIMING of rapture. I love John 14:1-3. This passage is beautiful! It talking about Christ's promise to us, that we do not be worry, or sorrow, we should be rejoice, because Christ already have prepared for us, that we shall dwell in His Father's house - New Jerusalem. If not believe him, He told us so, that He shall come again to receive us, and where He is, we shall always be with Him forever and ever.

I have no problem with John 14:1-3. I understand John 14:1-3 very clear. I believe when Christ shall come again, New Jerusaelm shall be descend out of heaven, and land on the new earth according to Rev. 21:1-2. We shall dwell with Christ in New Jerusalem on new earth forever and ever that shall be follow at Christ's coming after the judgment day.

I want to tell you on 1 Thess. 4:16. Notice, word, 'descend', it means, down, OPPOSITE of up.

Acts 1:9-11 telling us, when the two angels appeared to them, and told them, why they stare up in the heaven, they told them, they see Christ caught up in the heaven, SO, this shall be the SAME MANNER when Christ shall come again. I understand Acts 1:9-11 speak of Christ's coming shall not be a secert, but visibly and physical coming of Christ. First coming - Christ left Mt. Olivet into the heaven. Second Coming - Christ returns to Mt. Olivet from heaven - Zech. 14:4. Two angels spoken to the disciples, the only ONE future coming of Christ, no other else.

You mentioned of 1 Corinthains 15:49-58.

1 Cor. 15:49-58 do not saying that Christ shall come BEFORE tribulation. It talking about how quick our body all shall be changed into immortlaity at Christ's coming.

Also, notice, word, "LAST trumpet" - 1 Cor. 15:52. Paul does not saying, 'first trump'. He said, "last trump". I understand it is the very last trump, obivously, it find in Rev. 10:7 says, "But in the days of the voice of the SEVENTH angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be FINISHED, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets." Also, in Rev. 11:15 says, "And the seventh angel sounde; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever." The judgment shall be begin till after the seventh trumpet sound - Rev. 11:18.

1 Cor. 15;49-58 do not saying that Christ shall come BEFORE tribulation. This passage telling us, how quick our body all shall be changed into immortality at Christ's coming.

Yet, none of these passages that you give to me to prove that these are saying Christ shall come BEFORE tribulation.

You do really need a SOLID CLEAR verse to prove me, that a verse in the Bible saying, Christ shall come BEFORE tribulation.

I am waiting for you to prove me a verse.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Perhaps you should take a closer look at the verses in Daniel.

Daniel 9
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Let's break it down a little:
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:
We understand this to be prophesy concerning the death of Jesus on the cross.

and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;
The prince being referred to is the coming Antichrist. Thus, the 'people of the prince' is referring to the Romanian empire that destroyed the temple and Jerusalem in A.D. 70. Your explaination that Christ was killed DURING 70th week breaks down right here because there is approx. 40 years between the death of Christ and the destruction of the the temple and the city.

and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
I don't have any notes on this text. Perhaps someone can elaborate on it.

Then verse 27, And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:
Talking about the 70th week, the heart of our debate. Who is the 'he' referring to? The last person mentioned was the 'prince' in verse 26, thus 'he' is the Antichrist. So, the Antichrist will make a covenant with many for one week (7 years). I believe this covenant will allow Israel to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem because of the next part.

and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,
He (the Antichrist) shall break the covenant in the middle of the week (half of 7 would be 3 1/2) and stop the Jews from making sacrifices and offerings in the new temple.

and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Is this not what Jesus was referring to in Matthew 24:15? When the Antichrist stands in the temple and declares himself God? I believe Daniel 11 gives more details to this, especially verses 31-37. Then the 'Great Tribulation' begins and for the last 3 1/2 years of the 70th week, God's wrath is poured out upon the earth.

 

Amen, Brother Michael Hobbs -- Preach it!

I'm thinking of a number less than 4 yet more
than 7,000. What number is it?

This is an
example of an unresolvable statement. There is
no number that fits the criteria.

DPT: "Yet, none of these passages that you give to me to prove that these are saying Christ shall come BEFORE tribulation."

Learn about Synergy. Synergy is the 6th of the seven
habits of effective people. BTW, the author of the book
about the seven habits of effective people is a serious
Christian. He didn't want anybody not to know about the
seven habits of effective people. They are all the habits
of effective Chrisitian people also.
An example of synergy is that God is always more than
all that we can every one added together say about Him.

Jesus gives two examples in the Mount Olivet Discourse
(MOD) (Matthew 24-24, Mark 13, Luke 17): Noah
and Lot. Noah was taken out before the Flood flooded the
earth (it is within God's power to have protected
Noah and his family on the surface of the earth from
the effects of the flood). Lot was taken out of Sodom
and the cities of the valley before fire came
from the sky (it is within God's power to have protected
Lot and his two daughters from the effects of the fire
while staying in Sodom).

It is the very nature of God to protect His children
from the ravages of hell come to earth (AKA: The
Tribualtion Period). God's nature is not limited to one
and only one verse. To require that of God is way beyond
your pay scale and job duties.

 

About 2 Thess 2:15 DPT says: "**** Verse 15 commands us, that we
ought to STAND FAST, and HOLD the traditions which we
have been learning, by God's Word."

Nope. Bad reading. It talks about HOLDing the traditions
"you were taught either by our message or by our letter".
Recommend you go back and remember the FIRST thing you
were taught about eschalogical things: the pretribulation
rapture.

 

I believe the scriptures would show us otherwise. In Judges 14, we see Samson throw a week long feast to celebrate his marriage. In Matt. 22, the wedding supper is in the Father's house.

Heres' a link that goes into more detail.
This link on Jewish weddings also states that the celebration feasts last for a week.

In contrast, the 'supper of the great God' in Rev. 19:17-18 is not a celebration time. God calls it a sacrifice He makes to cleanse the land (Ezekiel 39:17-20).

Thus, I conclude that the 'supper of the great God' is not the same as the 'marriage supper of the Lamb'.

 

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Two angels spoken to the disciples, the only ONE future coming of Christ, no other else.
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I agree and this is true. However, the rapture doesn't require the second coming of Christ, and as scripture indicates, Christ descends to the clouds, and calls us up unto himself, and there shall we forever be with our Lord. This IS a separate EVENT PRIOR to the second coming of Christ and to what is promised to the church as I have clearly shown you. The last week of Daniel is meant for Israel, and the rest of the unbelieving world. Not the church - as it is God's wrath or judgement and the church is not ordained to go through it - Israel is, just as Noah went through the flood. However Enoch is representive of the church, as Enoch was caught up.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

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You do really need a SOLID CLEAR verse to prove me, that a verse in the Bible saying, Christ shall come BEFORE tribulation.

I am waiting for you to prove me a verse.
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I have given you many scripture references, to which you claim I have taken out of context, when you indeed have, and spiritualize it in many cases, when it is to be taken literally. Your main problem in not understanding these scriptures, is your refusal to see that Israel -the nation of Israel, is and must be separated from the church, and that many of these prophecies concern ONLY her, and the rest of the unbelieving world, who have rejected Jesus Christ. You fail to see that the book of Revelation is speaking of a period of time when God's last and final judgement upon this earth will take place to which the church is saved out of. We have salvation in Jesus Christ, but we are also saved and spared God's wrath not only spiritually after our physical death, but also those who are alive just prior to God's physical wrath on earth, his physical wrath. You are also confusing tribulations in life, with a period of tribulation or period of wrath of God coming upon this earth.

Have you ever taken an indepth study on this, either on your own, or in a class? I highly recommend that you do, and read God's word precept upon precept, line upon line. Take into account the "timing" of all events, what happens in these times, who is being spoken of, and most importantly, RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH. You are miserably failing at not only doing this, but also failing in not taking the proper context into account also. This is very important to do. Remember this also. Christ only fulfilled half of Isaiah concerning the acceptable year of the Lord. The rest of this prophecy is still yet to be fulfilled. You must also not confuse Gog/Magog with Armageddon, as these are two SEPARATE wars. One happens at Christ's return, the latter happens at the end of the millenial kingdom. You also, seem to not understand what the day of the Lord, or the day of Christ is. Please, I highly recommend you study these things in depth.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

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and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

--------------------------------------------------
I don't have any notes on this text. Perhaps someone can elaborate on it.
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Yes. I do. This happens sometime around or just after the middle of the tribulation period:


Revelation 12

12. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13. And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


Nothing but desolations occur from this point on, as this is the second half of the 7 year tribulation period, to which we are also told is Great tribulation, which occurs midway through this week, when Antichrist breaks his covenant with Israel, Satan indwells antichrist and sets up the abomination that maketh desolate, and the mark is shortly thereafter taken by many. This is also the beginning of the day of the Lord, it is when the kingdoms have become the Kingdoms of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, and the mystery of God is finished (shortly around this time frame of events). This is the time of God's most severe wrath is poured out which comes from the 7 bowl judgements. It is the worst time anyone has ever seen, nor will ever see, as it shall never be like this again, nor has it ever before been like this. It is a day of great darkness and mourning and desolations.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

--------------------------------------------------
I believe the scriptures would show us otherwise. In Judges 14, we see Samson throw a week long feast to celebrate his marriage. In Matt. 22, the wedding supper is in the Father's house.
--------------------------------------------------


Thanks Michael. I think I also agree. I haven't read your links yet, but I am familiar with the Jewish wedding ceremonies. Thank you for helping to clear up my understanding of this. I always tended to believe this, but I think you are right that the supper of God being spoken of is more of a judgement than it is a celebration. Thank you very much.


I do believe however, that it could be possible, for the millenial kingdom to be the marraige supper celebration. I say this because Jesus speaks in his parables about the wedding guests, which correlates to his second coming and starting to reign on the earth. There were many bidden to come to the wedding feast, and Israel is already God's wife and friend. The marriage being celebrated is between Christ and His bride, and the nation of Israel, I believe are the guests who are invited to the wedding feast. This also correlates the separation of the goats and the sheep. As the goats are separated and cast out, and so are those who are not wearing their proper wedding garments. What do you think?


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

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Daniel 9:24-27 never saying, 70th week is so called, "seven year of Tribulation period". The context of Dan. 9:24-27 talking about Messiah shall make a new covenant with many, it was already fulfilled through Jesus Christ by Calvary 490 years later after Daniel penned. Dan. 9:24-27 have do nothing with future seven year of Tribulation period. It is talking about the covenent that was already made by our Messiah through Calvary 2,000 years ago in Mark 14:24. Also, there is NO gap time between 69th and 70th week of Daniel 9:26-27. there is no over 2,000 years stretch as supposed of 490 years program in God's prophecy of the new covenant in verse 26-27. Verse 26 tells us, Christ was cut off AFTER 69th week, it speaks of Christ was killed by on the cross AFTER 69th week, obivously, Christ was killed DURING 70th week. Verse 27 tells us, Christ already make new covenant with many through calvary through his blood 2,000 years ago in Mark 13:24.
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I think Michael did an excellent job showing and explaining this to you. By the way, where does God say there is never a gap within a prophecy? In fact, God has shown us through already fulfilled prophecy, that many are still yet to be fulfilled. We can clearly see this in the book of Revelation also, that there is a 1000 year fullfilment and then Gog/magog war. THIS is when satan is released for a season to gather the nations a last time against Christ and his holy people. God then devours them, and casts Satan into the Lake of Fire. The earth is devoured by fire, and THEN the Great White Throne Judgement occurs, and THEN the New Jerusalam, and NEW HEAVENS AND NEW EARTH appear. There is a time gap between even this prophecy. Don't fall into the same error as the Jews in Jesus day, failing to recognize and understand prophecy in it's proper order and context.


You mentioned Mark 13:24:


24. But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,


When you compare scripture with scripture, what do you learn about these days? What is Jesus speaking of in this passage?

Take a look:

Mark 13

3. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
4. Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?


When will these things be?
What shall be the sign when these things shall be fulfilled?


Now, take notice the rest of the passage, and see if this has yet happened:


14. But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
15. And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
16. And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.
17. But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
18. And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
19. For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.


Now compare scripture with scripture (hint, do a study on passages speaking of the day of the Lord in the Old testament, the book of Revelation, New testament passages concering this time - and make a time chart of it, and the book of Revelation as you study):


Daniel 9

24. Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
(Now look at Daniel 2 and Revelation 17)

27. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


2 Thess.2

3. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4. Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


Revelation 12


7. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8. And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13. And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.


Isaiah 14

1. For the Lord will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.
(Rev.19)

2. And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the Lord for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.
(Rev. 13:10)

3. And it shall come to pass in the day that the Lord shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,
(Rev.19 - 22)

4. That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
(Rev.14:8, 18:18-19)


.....


12. How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13. For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.


Revelation 13

2. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3. And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4. And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5. And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


Mark 13

8. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.


1 Thessalonians 5

1. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,


Mark 13

24. But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25. And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.


Now read all Old testament prophecy concerning the day of the Lord: Zechariah, Zephaniah, Joel, etc. And New Testament such as: Acts 2, 2 Peter 3.


There is so much more, too much more, that I do not have the time to provide it for you, nor can I adequately explain it all to you. You must really study this on your own, and it takes time and effort on your part in order for you to truly understand what is to come. I have studied this for four years now (one year in depth and more structured/organized), and I still have much more to learn.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

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'All Israel shall be saved' of Romans 11:26. I understand Romans 11:26 very clear. We have to read the context of Romans chapter 11 talking about Olive tree. God removed unbelieving Jews from the tree, but remain believing Jews stay in the same tree, God added believing Gentiles unto tree to join with believing Jews together, SO... Romans 11:26 tells us, the RESULT of 'all Israel shall be saved' speak of both Gentiles and Jews shall be saved - being completed through Jesus Christ by Calvary.
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Romans 11 is telling us quite plainly not to be IGNORANT nor CONCIETED, because GOD IS NOT FINISHED WITH ISRAEL.


Romans 11

1. I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3. Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8. (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
9. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10. Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11. I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.


.............


16. For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18. Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21. For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25. For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27. For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.


Now you must compare scripture with scripture - rightly divide the word of truth.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

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You saying Ezekiel 36-38 have do nothing with Church. You could be correct saying it. Dispensationalists teaching Ezekiel 36-37 telling us, there shall be regathering Jews back to their land- Israel already fulfilled in year 1948 or 1967. I understand of Ezekiel chapter 37 - 'valley of dry bones', it speaks of future resurrection. I believe it is speak of future physical resurrection of Israel. It is not yet fulfilled. Right now, all of Christians are still buried in the graves. When Christ shall come again, all saints' body shall be resurrection, then Ezekiel chapter 36-37 shall be fulfilled for the purpose of gathering all saints together, but first the resurrection of the saints must be occured before the regathering come according to 1 Thess. 4:13-18.
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Ezekiel 36

1. Also, thou son of man, prophesy unto the mountains of Israel, and say, Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord:
2. Thus saith the Lord God; Because the enemy hath said against you, Aha, even the ancient high places are ours in possession:
3. Therefore prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Because they have made you desolate, and swallowed you up on every side, that ye might be a possession unto the residue of the heathen, and ye are taken up in the lips of talkers, and are an infamy of the people:
4. Therefore, ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord God; Thus saith the Lord God to the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, to the desolate wastes, and to the cities that are forsaken, which became a prey and derision to the residue of the heathen that are round about;
5. Therefore Thus saith the Lord God; Surely in the fire of my jealousy have I spoken against the residue of the heathen, and against all Idumea, which have appointed my land into their possession with the joy of all their heart, with despiteful minds, to cast it out for a prey.


Who is the prophecy given to? Why? and when does this occur? Rightly divide the word of truth.

Who?

The mountains of Israel.

Why?

1. Because the enemy hath said against you, Aha, even the ancient high places are ours in possession

2. Because they have made you desolate, and swallowed you up on every side, that ye might be a possession unto the residue of the heathen, and ye are taken up in the lips of talkers, and are an infamy of the people

When?

31. Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.
32. Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord God, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.
33. Thus saith the Lord God; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded.
34. And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by.
35. And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.
36. Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the Lord build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the Lord have spoken it, and I will do it.
37. Thus saith the Lord God; I will yet for this be inquired of by the house of Israel, to do it for them; I will increase them with men like a flock.
38. As the holy flock, as the flock of Jerusalem in her solemn feasts; so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men: and they shall know that I am the Lord.


Now look at this verse AND in the CONTEXT it is speaking of:


Mark 13

28. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
29. So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
30. Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
31. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.


Who? The fig tree (Israel)

When? When her branch is tender and puts forth leaves is the SIGN that summer is near.

Why? When you see these things pass, you know that the time is near.

What? The coming of the son of man and fulfillment of prophecy.


Ezekiel 37

1. The hand of the Lord was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
2. And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
3. And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? and I answered, O Lord God, thou knowest.
4. Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.
5. Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
6. And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.
7. So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
8. And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
9. Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord God; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
10. So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
11. Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
12. Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13. And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14. And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.


Who?

1. Prophecy unto the dry bones.
2. Unto the wind.
3. Unto the house of Israel.


Who are the dry bones?

the whole house of Israel.

What?

1. Dry Bones:

And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.


2. Wind:

Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.


Why?

1. behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

2. that they may live.

3. then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.


When?

I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.


The jews, and the whole house of Israel is spiritually dead, and cut off from God, and have been scattered across the face of the earth. As we learned in Romans 11, they are blinded in part, UNTIL the FULLNESS of the Gentiles be come in, and this is TO PROVOKE ISRAEL TO JEALOUSY. We see in Revelation this:


Revelation 7

1. And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3. Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5. Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6. Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7. Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8. Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
9. After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10. And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12. Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14. And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.


Revelation 10

7. But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
8. And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth.
9. And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.
10. And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.
11. And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.


Revelation 11

3. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5. And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7. And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11. And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13. And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14. The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


Revelation 14

1. And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3. And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
6. And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7. Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
8. And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
9. And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10. The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11. And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12. Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.


These are all clearly speaking of Israel. Those 144,00 sealed of God are the 12 tribes of Israel. These are they, who are martyred during this time, and are part of the first resurrection. They are also preaching to all on earth of the coming kingdom of God. We also see that these are they that came out of Great tribulation, who have WASHED THEIR ROBES CLEAN with the blood of the lamb. Ezekiel 37 is talking about this resurrection, but more importantly it is speaking of the spiritual rebirth of Israel. Notice, they are brought back into their land in UNBELIEF. It is not until the last 3 1/2 years when this gospel is preached and thus at the end ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED, and say BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD, and then they shall see HIM WHOM THEY HAVE PIERCED. The church is ALREADY IN HEAVEN and not ordained to God's wrath, to which is WHEN this takes place. We return with Jesus Christ FROM HEAVEN when He comes for their rescue from their enemies, at the battle of Armaggedon, and we see the saints/elect in heaven are gathered, as well as the saints/elect on earth to and for this battle.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

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Rev. 3:10 does not prove us it is pretribulational.

Christ does not saying, 'hour of temptation' IS so called, "seven year of Tribulation period".

'Keep us from' does not mean that we shall be escape or OUT of, but, it means, to protect or guard us. Rev. 3:10 is same with John 17:15 says, "I pray not that thou shouldesttake them out of the world(sound like rapture huh?), but that thou shouldest KEEP them from the evil."
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Yes it does, if you refer to this:


1 Thessalonians 5

1. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10. Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.


Now compare to this:

Matthew 24

3. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4. And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8. All these are the beginning of sorrows.


Beginning of sorrows is referring to birth pangs, or a woman in travail, or a woman in labor, a woman with the onset of labor - childbirth, and the contractions thereof.

Now read this:

Revelation 5

1. And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
2. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3. And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
6. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
8. And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10. And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11. And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12. Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, honour, and glory, and blessing.
13. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
14. And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

AND.....


1. And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
2. And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

(BRINGING PEACE and conquering by peace - notice without an arrow)


3. And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
4. And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

( When they shall say peace and safety, THEN SUDDEN destruction cometh upon them as a THIEF IN THE NIGHT)


5. And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
6. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
7. And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
8. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
9. And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11. And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

(these are matyred saints during the first half of the tribulation - those who were tried during the hour of temptation and overcame, along with the jews)

12. And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

(This fits the descriptions in scripture of THE DAY OF THE LORD)

13. And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind

14. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16. And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17. For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

(acknowledgement and realization of all the judgements of God that have taken place so far.) Prior to this, they maybe did not realize it, as these judgements continue to progressing get WORSE, just as contraction/labor pains become when a woman is in labor and about to give birth.


Each seal that is opened bring a JUDGEMENT, and ONLY THE LAMB could open the seals thereof. Jesus Christ is given all judgement by God the Father. This is what is happening. When we see that the mystery of God is finished, just prior to the 7 bowl judgements, that this book is now open, and John is told to eat it, and it is in the mouth sweet but bitter in the belly. Now ask yourself this question: What is this book, and why is it sweet in the mouth, but bitter in the belly. Also notice that there a ten thousand, upon ten thousand, etc. in Heaven, at the time the Lamb takes this book. This is speaking of the church in HEAVEN at this TIME.


You continued to rant on about temptations. I understand perfectly what temptations are, and how we must deal with them daily. And as these verses may also be talking about this in general, they are SPECIFICALLY talking about a SPECIFIC EVENT and TIME:

Revelation 3 (keep in mind also, the context of this book is all about the events covered in this book of prophecy concerning the end times)


Revelaion 3

10. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.


Now compare:

2 Thessalonians 2

1. Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2. That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4. Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


Paul is clearly talking about the day of the Lord in comparison to our "gathering together unto him". He is comforting these christians, that some had made them to believe that THE DAY OF THE LORD had COME ALREADY. Paul is telling them, that THIS DAY OF THE LORD shall not come EXCEPT these things happen first, with a clear warning to not let any man decieve you on:

1. there comes a falling away

2. AND that man of sin be revealed, the wicked one.


We then read further:

6. And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9. Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12. That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14. Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Now again, what must take place first, BEFORE the day of the Lord?

1. A falling away

2. only he who now[/B letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
And then shall that Wicked be revealed


What is this falling away? Read the letter to the churches. You will find those who overcome will be found in the Philadelphia church, that are KEPT FROM the HOUR OF TEMPTATION. Then you find those who will NOT overcome, who are tares, and who will NOT BE KEPT FROM, but go THROUGH and are TRIED and are those who did not have the LOVE OF THE TRUTH, that they SHOULD BELIEVE THE LIE, to which is the reason God sends them STRONG DELUSION. This is the beginning of the HOUR OF TEMPTATION to try those who dwell on earth, which is speaking of the tribulation period. God desire that men repent of their works during this time:


Revelation 2

20. Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
23. And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Revelation 9

17. And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
18. By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
19. For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
20. And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
21. Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.