What do 5 point Calvinist have to say about this question?

But you fail to take into account the effect of The Fall in the Garden of Eden. We have already explained to you what happened there. </font>[/QUOTE]Wrong, KenH, unlike you I read nothing into scriptures regarding the fall. Nothing that God created into man was lost because of sin. The capabilities that God created into Adam, Adam's offspring possess even today. Every human capability that Adam had, we have. God did not alter his creation because man sinned. Man sinned and changed the relationship he had with God. Prove me wrong!

 

How is it possible that our mental capacities are effected by sin? Our mental capability is not effected by the content, because one can process information equally well while processing evil as when processing good. So our mental capability is not effected by sin. So how does the message become foolishness? It is because it is contrary to knowledge that we possess from human natural life. The message of an all powerful God sending his only begotten Son to die on the behalf of others doesn't make sense when compared to the knowledge that we possess from natural life where dogs eat dogs.

I agree, but which comes first? The word! If the word was not present, the Spirit would have nothing to work with but a mind bent on evil!

 

You have already been proven wrong in this forum but you refuse to believe the truth.

 

You have already been proven wrong in this forum but you refuse to believe the truth. </font>[/QUOTE]No one has proven me wrong! You've only posted your own opinions.

 

Yelsew,

Would man have died if he had not have sinned?

Bro. dallas

 

In that case, you will never admit this side of Heaven as ever being proven wrong as all any of us can do is post our opinions.

 

Did man surely die upon eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of Good and evil? Not until he achieved 930 years of age. If he had not sinned, would he have lived eternally? How does one determine that? I do not know, and neither do you! All we can do is speculate.

 

I'll answer the original question

I'm not a calvinist, but here's my opinion. Pastor Larry is correct in that they are not seeking after the True God, but in a god they have created in their own mind. The fact that they call him by the name Jehovah is not relavent. The Jehovah of the watchtower bears no resembelance to the Jehovah of the Bible.

They actually don't study God's Word. They study the watchtower magezine, and rarely open a Bible. Even when they do, their bible is a perversion of the True Word of God. They have rewritten the Bible to support their false doctrines.

They don't even accept Jesus, as they teach that He was the angel Michael in human form. They also deny the resurrection and attonment.

The Holy Spirit will not lead anybody who is truly seeking Him to a sect which serves a god so different from the True God.

Love in Christ,
Larry

 

Because sin affects all of us. That is why it is called "total depravity." Read Rom 1 and Eph 4:17-19, among other passages that show the affect of sin on our mind. For further evidence, ask why Adam could name all the animals in part of one day and we can't remember to pick up milk on the way home from work. I think it is obvious that sin affects our mind.

Again, you misunderstand. It is not about the ability to process the information propositionally, but about the spiritual understanding of the information. The mind set on the flesh (contrasted with the mind set on teh Spirit--the saved) is unable to have spiritual understanding. Therefore, they cannot please God.

Studying the passage would help here. The message is foolishness because a "crucified Messiah" is a contradiction in terms. Man cannot conceive of a victor who hangs on the cross and does everything necessary for salvation. The world looks and says "That's a dumb way to get to God." But God was pleased through the foolishness of hte message preached to save those who believe.

Since the Holy Spirit is God who is eternal, I would say the Holy Spirit came first. In the process of salvation, the word is rejected apart from the Spirit, so while it may come first, it is rejected until God opens the minds of the unbelievers through the work of the Holy Spirit (2 Cor 4:3ff; John 6:61; 1 Cor 2:14; etc.). The Holy Spirit doesn't need anything more than a mind bent on evil to work with. He can certainly overcome that. He is omnipotent.

 

In that case, you will never admit this side of Heaven as ever being proven wrong as all any of us can do is post our opinions. </font>[/QUOTE]I have never seen anything you've posted that convinces me that I am wrong, so why are you attempting to shame me for not agreeing with you? I am just as right as you! The Holy Spirit convinces me that what is revealed to me is correct in the light of God's word and in God's creation.

 

Whatever we might say about the worth of various intepretations, we are not both right. One of us is wrong. The Holy Spirit does not convince of truth. But Satan most certainly does counterfeit the truth. Therefore, we are to test the spirits to see whether they are from God. The test is, and must be, the text of Scripture. So we must have rigid and unbending allegiance to that.

 

Yes, as it was man's sin that causes man to die. Man would have continually had access to the Tree of Life if Adam had not sinned.

 

My faith is built on nothing less, than Jesus blood and righteousness.

I do not accept your interpretations of the selected scriptures that you use to support your point of view. So you feel compelled to consider me "an unwashed person". Do you not realise that your position is one of preconditioning and relativity? You are preconditioned to receive the words of those who do not agree with you in a certain manner. Kind of like the way that Nicodemus received the words of Jesus.

We may not break this impass, but it does provide interesting discussions so long as one doesn't attempt to lord it over others.

 

Yes, as it was man's sin that causes man to die. Man would have continually had access to the Tree of Life if Adam had not sinned. </font>[/QUOTE]Suggest you go read the whole story.

 

Suggest you read the first three chapters of the book of Genesis.

 

I submit by his writings that he has read the whole story; and he has discovered that if God had left man in the Garden of Eden that by his will,subject to bondage of sin as it was and is, he would have eaten of the tree of life and this is the reason God gives that man is expelled from the Garden, from the presence of the Tree of Life, '...lest he put forth his hand and eat of it...'

It can not be spoken any plainer than this.
Bro. Dallas

[edited for clarity of direction]
[edited again to correct mispaste; sorry brethren, I just came out of a final exam covering Chinese and Japanese history from 1860 to present and I am still addled ]

 

Thanks Bro Dallas, that was my meaning to KenH.

 

You are welcome, but I was meaning that by Ken's statement he has obviously read the entire passage in question.

While I wouldn't necessarily doubt you are saved, I cannot agree with you that the Holy Spirit teaches a private interpretation of Scripture that is so obviously contrary to His recorded revelation, at least not as often as what you seem to imply from your understanding. Which you have every liberty in this great nation to excercise. However, to agree with you very much one would find themselves in opposition to the very word of God.
God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

What do you perceive in this matter, that I have said is contrary to Holy Scripture?