Featured What does Galatians 3:27 mean?

What? You just stated no one could be saved until Pentecost! You just denied all the disciples were saved or could be saved until Pentecost! Abraham was saved and in heaven.

First, it is not a "parable." Second, you are the one who needs to reread it as ONLY the rich man descended into "hades."

Again, jerking the text out of context. He is not denying that any man has gone to heaven prior to Him. He is denying that anyone has gone to heaven and come back to tell what they have seen

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Christ was IN HEAVEN when he was speaking to Nicodemus and thus could tell him about heavenly things. However, NO MAN has ever gone to heaven and returned to tell about heavenly things but Christ who IS IN HEAVEN.

Again, misinterpretation. No "man" that is in the natural state has been to heaven and seen God as "flesh and blood" cannot enter into God's presence. However, the saints did not go before God in their natural state, but went as spirits, as their spirits "return to God" and the "spirits of just men made perfect" are always before the throne of God (Heb. 12:23).

You forget that Jesus is more than a man, and as God he is ALWAYS in heaven just as he told Nicodemus:

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

This was long after the resurrection and it is merely the claim that he obtained victory over death, hell and the grave. However, still NO MAN has attained this victory in the body but Christ.

Another abuse of the immediate context. In context he is urging them to suffer persecution for godliness rather than for ungodliness. Christ is then given as the example of one who suffered for godliness and not due to his own sins. However, God vindicated his death by raising him from the dead by the power of the Spirit. By the same spirit he went and preached to those living in the days of Noah as the Spirit of Christ was in Noah preaching to the lost world, who rejected the gospel and thus deserved their punishment in hell.

1 Pet. 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

2Pe 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

This was part of the plural "firstfruits" of the resurrection IN THE BODY, NOT ENTRANCE OF SPIRITS INTO heaven prior to Christ's ministry. Saints were already in heaven, but these were rejoined with their physical body - resurrected glorified saints as the "firstfruits" of the resurrection.

Jud 5:12 ¶ Awake, awake, Deborah: awake, awake, utter a song: arise, Barak, and lead thy captivity captive, thou son of Abinoam.


This is a quotation taken from Baraks victory in the Old Testament. The "captivity" refers to their ENEMIES who held them "captive." Barak defeated those who held them in "captivity" and took them "captive." Jesus did the same thing in his death, burial and resurrection. He took what holds us in "captivity" = sin, death, hell and the grave and overcame it and now stands with the Keys to death and hell. This has nothing to do with saints in captivity in its historical Old Testament usage or its New Testament application.

Here is where your theory falls utterly to pieces. None of the afore said texts claim to have taken "paradise" out of hades. In all of your misapplied texts you have argued that it is those IN paradise that are taken OUT OF paradise into heaven, meaning PEOPLE are being transferred NOT PARADISE. Advocates of your position argue that PARADISE is part of hades located downward.

Paradise has always been in heaven just as Paul locates it:

2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

No, because when Jesus was speaking to the Thief, when he was speaking to Nicodemus, when he was living on earth HE WAS ALREADY IN PARADISE/HEAVEN as God the Son - omnipresent (Jn. 3:11)

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

No one can get the keys unless they are BODILY RESURRECTED FIRST as the resurrection is the victory over death, hell and the grave of which NO MAN before the cross or after the cross has yet to attain BUT JESUS and the firstfruits that rose when he did. So you are argument is false.

Abuse of the text again. They thought they had been baptized with the baptism of John but clearly had not. John knew about the Holy Spirit but they did not. John knew that Jesus was the Christ but they did not (Acts 19:5) and preach Christ for salvation. They probably had been baptized by Apollos before he was better instructed that the ministry of John had been given to the church and not to free lance preachers. That Jesus was the Christ (Acts 18:28). They were deficient in the very same areas that Apollos had been deficient. Both were already saved. Apollos had the baptism of John but did not have authority to administer it to anyone else - that was given to the church. When apollos was better instructed he worked from that point forward through the churches (Acts 18:29). They needed baptism from an authorized administrator - a church sent administrator (Acts 13:1-3).

 

Nowhere does the Bible say that! It says it was a baptism "of repentance" meaning he required people to repent of their sins (Mt. 3:6-8) and beleive in Christ (Acts 19:5) before he would administer baptism. That is precisely the order in the Great Commission. That is precisely the order practiced in Acts 2:41. You simply do not know what you are talking about.

 

Mark 1:4John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Luke 3:3And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

 

How can I put this since you are misreading my words? Abraham was not in Heaven because Christ's death has not been done yet to bring him to God.

Abraham was not in hell, but a place created as standing apart from hell by a wide gulf. That place is Paradise so nicknamed as Abraham's bosom.

Abraham's justification has given him that place to await Christ's atonement so Jesus can bring him and all OT saints to God the Father.

After He has risen and ascended, bringing Paradise and the OT saints in it with Him, He began saving believers since Pentecost in preparing a place for them in the kingdom of heaven.

 

Greetings again The Biblicist,

In response to your question, Abraham is commended or acknowledged at various stages of his life, and the Scriptures speak of his justification in relation to at least three of these.

1. When he first received his call, Paul states that Abram had the gospel preached to him:
Genesis 12:1-3 (KJV): 1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee: 2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: 3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
Galatians 3:7-9 (KJV): 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

2. When he believed the promise concerning the seed:
Genesis 15:5-6 (KJV): 5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. 6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

3. When he believed the promise concerning the birth of Isaac:
Romans 4:17-25 (KJV): 17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. 18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara’s womb: 20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

4. When he offered up Isaac:
James 2:21-24 (KJV): 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Our belief of the gospel is centred in Christ and this belief will lead us in a way of life that is Christ centred. Such a belief and spiritual life brings justification, that is forgiveness of sins and the prospect of everlasting life in the kingdom of God upon this earth, when Jesus returns to rule from Jerusalem when all things are restored and refreshed.
Acts 8:5 (KJV): Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
Acts 8:12 (KJV): But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Galatians 2:20 (KJV): I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Acts 3:19-21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Acts 3:25-26 (KJV): 25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

Mt. 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

Again, reread the quotations you are giving. You highlight the latter words "for remission of sins" but these words only modify "repentance." The absolute proof is Matthew 3:8 where John refused to baptize some until they brought forth "fruits of repentance." Hence, John demanded repentance prior to baptism. Remission of sins is based upon "repentance" and baptism is a response to repentance. Your view is simply wrong!

 

Note the use of the perfect tense "had said" (Gen. 3:1) as this conversation actually took place in Genesis 11 prior to Abraham leaving "Ur" of the Chaldees for Haran. This is where his faith in the gospel occurred (Gal. 3:8).

You should have quoted also verse 7 which shows that this was not the point of first belief, but rather simply a continuation of faith in an additional revelation added to what he first promised in Ur of the chaldees. Again Moses uses the perfect tense in verse 6 with the imperfect tense in verse 7 to show that this faith in this additional revelation was not a nw faith or a new act of faith, but the continuation of faith with continued revelation of the initial promise and faith in the Ur of the Chaldees. God had been continually saying this to Abraham since ur (imperfect tense). So this was not something NEW, but something OLD that continues. God was simply adding revelation to the previous and Abraham was simply CONTINUING to believe the initial promise with each added new revelation. This is like 1 John 5:13 where John addresses those who already have believed in Christ to strengthen their faith that they already have eternal life and strengthen their faith in this fact.

Paul is not attempting to show any new point of faith or any additional new justification here. He is purposely selecting this occassion to define the the true nature of justifying faith as introduced in verse 16 and previously defined in verses 1-15. So you are jerking this out of context. The true nature of justifying faith is that it rests solely upon the promise and power of God (v. 21) without any works produced in and through man. Paul is showing this is the true nature as both Abraham and Sarah were "dead" in regard to producing any WORKS to attain this promise - total inability to even help God. They had previously attempted to help God obtain this promise with Ishmael. Now God purposely waited until they COULD NOT ASSIST God in any possible way but only could "believe" that God's promise must be totally accomplished by God's power WITHOUT THEIR WORKS. This is the true nature of justifying faith and after providing this definition by way of example, Paul directly applies it to us in regard to faith in the gospel (Rom. 7:22-5:2). Hence, faith in the gospel does not add works to what Christ finished FOR US. However, as Paul continues in Romans 6-8 justification by faith is not alone, as it accompanies regeneration which is evidenced by works as James testifies unto. Works "perfect" or "complete" faith not because they are inclusive in faith or in the object of faith, but because justifying faith does not exist in anyone who is spiritually dead and where there is life there is works. Paul is denying "works" is the cause of justification as that cause is found solely in the finished works of Jesus Christ, and therefore works are not inclusive of justifying faith. However, Paul agrees with James that works "perfect" or "complete" faith as its product before men that one's profession of faith is true.

James is not contradicting Paul. Paul is making a clear distinction between the cause of justification (faith) "before God" in contrast to the effects (works) before men, thus justified by faith without work (Rom. 4:5-6), whereas James is showing the clear relationship between justification by faith with justification by works in the more "perfect" or "complete" context of God AND man.

James is making the contextual point that works justify THE PROFESSION of faith in the ears and sight of MEN. Abraham's faith was justified by his actions before the servant, before his son. Abraham was not, as the man who simply "says" he will pray for you, but can "show" nothing, as with the first illustration. Abraham was not as the demons who have nothing but historical faith, as in the second illustration. This is made clear by the phrase "you SEE then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith ONLY." In the previous illustration leading up to Abraham, the command is to "show me" or make your profession justifiable to observing men. Neither does James deny he had faith prior to this event but his point is to show how "faith wrought with his works" or is consistent with faith and completes the profession of faith before men.

James is not contradicting Paul who says Abraham was justified "before God" and "without works." Paul is speaking about the nature of justifying faith, which is without works, while James is speaking about the relationship between faith and works in a fuller context before God and men and thus works "perfect" or make it complete in the fuller context of both God and men. Jame is speaking about his PROFESSION before men and how works completes that PROFESSION or justifies his profession of faith before men("show me" "says to me" "see"). Paul says the same thing in Romans 6-8 showing that no man is justified by faith who is not also regenerated by faith and good works are the evidence of the Spirit of regeneration.

Notice, that even you are making a clear distinction between cause and effect. The belief "will lead us" but the "way of life" is not "this belief" but rather the product of it. This is true with Abraham's justification by faith without works but it is equally true there is no such thing as justification by faith without works where there is not also regeneration which is manifested through works before men. Thus before men our profession of justification by faith is made "perfect" or "completed" in the context of both God and men.

However, Paul is making a clear distinction between cause and effect whereas James is showing the clear relationship between cause and effect.

 

Matthew 3: And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins. 7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

It doesn't change the meaning of what that baptism was for. That was why John was mad at them. They wanted to remit their sins but still continue in them for which John warned them that the water baptism will do them no good, seeking to escape the wrath that was to come if they still continue in them.

 

This is more for Biblicist, but you & others may be edified by Him as well.

These first two refer to the coming Christ which shows how he and his spiritual "offsprings" will be blessed.

Therefore Abraham's faith was waiting for Christ to accomplish this for him.

That means he had to wait somewhere not in Heaven and yet not in Hell.

The way of life Whom is Christ is the only way we and OT saints can come to God the Father in Heaven.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

That includes OT saints, because if men can get into Heaven without Christ, then Christ has died in vain.

So Paradise aka Abraham's bosom was located beneathe the earth but above hell for the thief at the cross to join Him that day in Paradise when after His resurrection, Jesus admitted that He had not ascended to the Father yet.

After His ascension, Paradise and the former inhabitants are in the third Heaven awaiting the inheritance of the incorruptible to join the disciples of the NT that were found abiding in Him & His words as they were trusting Jesus as their Good Shepherd and not just as their Saviour at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb to be held in His honour for all He has done for them.

 

I did not misread your words at all, as here are your own words concerning Abraham.

Originally Posted by Hark View Post
Abraham's justification saved him from hell, but not quite in Heaven yet.

You are welcome to your own opinions but not to your own facts and the facts do not support your opinion. You provide no biblical based responses to the contextual based answers I provided - just your opinions.

 

That is right! It does not change what baptism was for! It was for those who repented, those who confessed their sins "for the remission of sins." You are teaching the false doctrine of baptismal regeneration. Do you think Jesus was baptized for this reason then? If not, why then did Jesus submit to baptism if John's baptism was to obtain "remission of sins" as you teach?

Why then were the early churches commanded to administer water baptism then? Are you really teaching literal salvation, literal remission of sins was the intent behind the commission Jesus gave them and which they practiced in Acts 2:41???????

Are you a Campbellite? Are you a Sacramentalist? As that is the very basis of their false doctrine of baptismal regeneration.

 

There is no "will be" but the aorist tense completed action is used in Romans 4:11 and the clear statement he was already justified while living "in circumcision" and NOT IN UNCIRCUMCISION. Hence, his completed act of justification did not continue as an uncompleted act during his life in circumcision as Trevor tried to prove.

Heaven has always been heaven and hell has always been hell, and there is no purgatory where people have to wait in order for the sins to be finally purged.

 

Do remember the scripture where Paul is judging a believer as not a believer for living in sin. In any correction, examples 1 Corinthians 5th chapter and 2 Thessalonians 3rd chapter, Paul is still calling these wicked and unreasonable men that have not faith that do not follow after the traditions taught of us as still "brothers" and to be treated as "brothers" when admonishing them and not the "enemy".

One may judge a person's as not having faith, but I have never seen where judging a person's faith as not true as if he was not a christian or a brother.

James was not talking about the faith that believers have in Jesus Christ for their salvation.

James was talking about how believers were abusing verbalizing their faith in God's Providence in getting ouyt of helping the poor as well as not leading by example of the church's faith in His Providence for the church to provide for the immediate needs of the poor that were about to perish from staravation and the elements after service from the bounty they had just collected in trusting God to provide for the church tomorrow.

It was that kind of faith that requires works when seeking to instill that faith in His Providence in the eyes of the poor by the church leading by example.

James reference to Abraham PROVES that was the kind of faith James was referring to.

Genesis 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? 8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.....13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen.

James reference to that faith displayed at that event is also so named for the kind of faith that James was talking about; faith in His Providence.

Faith in Jesus Christ requires no works for salvation; otherwise it is not by grace, and believers are "working" to keep their salvation, and God has become an Indian Giver; taking back the free gift of salvation.

The race to be run is for the eternal glory that comes with our salvation which is to be that vessel unto honour in His House to attend the Marriage Supper of the Lamb and that has to be run by faith in the Son of God & all His promises to us as our Good Shepherd to rest in Him to help us to follow Him as well as rest in Him as our Saviour that we have been saved by faith in Jesus Christ.

To prove the power of God in salvation for all those that believe even in His name, there will be vessels unto dishonour in His House that did not depart from iniquity as well as those that did not do any work but hid the talent as well as those that err from the truth that had their faith overthrown to not believe in Him any more.

And that is why there are vessels unto dishonour in His House to prove that the vessels unto honour in His House are there in that way for living by faith in the Son of God to lead them there to attend the Marriage Supper by abiding in Him & His words being His disciples seeking His glory & by Him, the glory of God the Father and no other.

If any seek to receive glory for the good works they have done, they shall find themselves left behind at the pre trib rapture event since it is by Christ we have our being and by His workmanship in us that enables us to do good works which is why we would cast our crowns at His feet as those crowns are really His crowning achievements in us. He gets all the glory and we glorify Him for what He has done for us, in us, and through us.

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Good works are profitable unto men; not for proving our salvation.

1 Corinthians 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

 

His act of justification did not get Abraham to God the Father in Heaven because Christ's death has not occured yet for His seed to be established to bring Abraham to God the Father in Heaven.

Abraham was not in hell, not in "purgatory" and not in Heaven, but in Paradise as nicknamed Abraham's bosom.

You really have to wonder why Jesus did not simply say Heaven for where Abraham was at.

By your point of view, if Abraham was in Heaven, and all the OT saints along with the poor man named Lazarus, then Christ has died in vain because not every one had sinned to need Christ as His Saviour in order for them to come to God the Father in Heaven.

The OT saints needed their Passover Lamb to be able to enter into Heaven.

There is no other way otherwise, Jesus Christ has died in vain and there are flesh glorying in themselves in Heaven for getting there without Christ.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

1 Corinthians 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

 

David believed upon death he would pass from this life UPWARD into heaven and I quote:

Psa. 73:23 Nevertheless I am continually with thee:

Here is David's assertion that He is continually with God. In the following verses he explains what that means:


thou hast holden me by my right hand.
24 Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory.
25 Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee.

Notice the TWO contrasting states - (1) "in heaven" versus (2) "upon earth" NO THIRD PLACE

Notice that on earth he holds his right hand (v. 23b) and guides him with his counsel (v. 24a) BUT "AFTERWARDS" God receives him "to glory" which is defined as "in heaven" in the very next verse.

Ps 90:10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.


In Psalm 139 David only describes TWO alternatives other than earth - "heaven" and "hell" NO THIRD OPTION.

Sheol is the place of the dead. Lowest sheol is the place of the dead spirits as in the case of the rich man. Upper sheol is the place of the dead bodies as in the case of David and all other saints, as upper sheol is described in connection with the rotting corpses:

Ps 141:7 Our bones are scattered at the grave’s (Heb. sheol) mouth, as when one cutteth and cleaveth wood upon the earth.

Isa. 14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave (Heb. sheol), and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

1 Cor. 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, [Gr. Hades] where is thy victory?

The KJV translators translated "sheol" half the time "grave" and half the time as either "hell" or "pit".

Saints have always gone straight to heaven in spirit and their bodies to sheol while the spirits of the wicked have always gone to lowest sheol/hades or the place of torment.


Finally, justification and sanctification and faith are all products of redemption as much as going to heaven and the saints received these BEFORE the cross and did not have to wait until the cross to walk by faith, be justified, be sanctificed, to exhibit the fruit of the spirit (love, joy, peace, etc.).

 

No. If confessing for the remission of sins was how the remission of sins was achieved by way of John, there would be no water baptism and John would not be known as John the Baptist.

And John would not be so ticked off, and so when he saw the Pharisees taking advantage of what the water baptism was for, he warned them that after having received it, they should bring forth fruits unto repentance.

Are you expounding on that earlier point as if water baptism is a fruit meeting repentance after having come to and believe in Jesus Christ to be saved?

Paul seemed to shy away from insisting on water baptism even though he has done it here and there as testified by him.

1 Corinthians 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God....21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Neither one and I have stated that water baptism is not necessary for our salvation.

I do not know how you had connected me to that, other than by your viewpoint of connecting John the Baptist's water baptism as being affiliated with the gospel which is NOT my viewpoint.

It is Jesus baptizing us with the Holy Ghost & fire that is the ONLY baptism that is affiliated with the saving message of the gospel which you disagree as you seemed to think that the disciples, which would have to include Judas Iscariot, were saved along with the OT saints, that they did not need Jesus to die for their sins to bring them to God the Father into Heaven.

And yet Jesus explained to Nicodemus on how one was born again and it had to deal with His crucifixion as well as His ascension as explained to His disciples.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? 62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

So the disciples were not officially saved yet until He had ascended.

I believe between the two of us, you are the one making a big deal about water baptism; not me.

 

Hogwash! If your position were true then they could have received no BENEFITS of redemption until actual redemption by Christ occurred in time and space. However, they did receive benefits. Faith is itself a fruit of the spirit not of the flesh. Justification was received "in uncircumcision" and they walked by faith (Heb. 11) with all the evident fruits of the Spirit.

You can't have your pie and eat it too! Either they could not receive any redemption benefits until the cross or they could receive all of them before the cross. There is no part and parcel.

 

David said that when he was alive and so can hardly apply to him being in Heaven with God there.

God can be with David when he was alive and He was with David in Abraham's bosom; and after His ascension, David is with God now even though he is in Paradise that has been moved to Heaven since His acsension.

In the following verses he explains what that means:

I believe David was referring to God as desiring Him over any one on earth and in Heaven, but again, he said this when he was alive and he can still be "received to glory" in Paradise which at that time was located beneathe the earth but above hell as I am sure he is awaiting the promise of the seed to become a citizen of Heaven.

A spirit is certainly flying and that applies to both sinners & saints.

You have not really stated any verse that testify to OT saints going into Heaven when they die. I know they are not in hell, nor were they, but yet again, I find Abraham's bosom as a reference not exactly referring to Heaven for then why would the sinner not ask God? Because I believe sinners cannot approach a holy God. And yet this sinner in hell can see afar off and be able to talk to Abraham?

Here is something else.

1 Samuel 28: And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die? 10 And Saul sware to her by the Lord, saying, As the Lord liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing. 11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. 13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. 14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

So I have scriptural reference as to the direction from which the spirit of Samuel had come from during the time which I believe Abraham's bosom aka Paradise was located from as the spirit of Samuel came out of the earth.

This below applies to OT saints or it is a lie.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:...23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Hebrews 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, ....

This being after he had suffered for sins being put to the death which afterwards he preached unto "spirit" , not people, but "spirits" in prison which are the souls of OT saints in Abraham's bosom aka Paradise.

Explain why the OT saints were resurrected after His resurrection unless to testify that He has redeemed their souls from beneathe the earth?

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Pray for discernment, Biblicist. Surely you can see why I believe what I do from the scripture; from all of the scripture.

 

You are confused! John did demand water baptism and so did Jesus and so does the Great Commission. Peter commanded water baptism in Acts 2:38-41. Neither John or Christ demanded that baptism literally remits sin, but is the visible witness that sins have been remitted.

You seem to be incapable of understanding that water baptism is a Great Commisison command until the end of the world BUT NOT FOR LITERAL SALVATION but the visible witness of salvation! Look at the book of Acts! Water baptism is administered throughout the book. Look at the Eunuch!

There is no contradition between justification by faith alone in Christ and obedience that follows in baptism, church membership or etc. There is no contradiction between saved by grace and ordinances that give witness to salvation by grace. The only contradiction would be if the ordinances obtained LITERAL SALVATION or LITERAL REMISSION OF SINS instead of merely giving WITNESS to literal salvation and remission of sins. Look at the sacrifice offered by Abel in Heb. 11:4. It did not remit his sins or obtain righteousness for him but it gave "WITNESS' that he was already righteous by faith in what the literal lamb he sacrificed SYMBOLIZED!

Hogwash! He shyed away from the idea that baptism was essential for LITERAL salvation or made one group of people more spiritual because their baptism was administered by Peter versus Paul.

 

Are you kidding me??????? What kind of interpreter are you? He is clearly expressing his HOPE now and after leaving the earth. You don't have to be in heaven to express your HOPE for heaven!!!!

He says "IN HEAVEN" or can't you read?

Do you have a problem with reading English? Find the word "desiring him over" in this passage? You cannot. What he is saying expressly and meaning is that God will be with him "CONTINUALLY" on earth and "afterwards" - after what? After being on earth! Where? "in heaven."

He has already told you where he will fly "afterwards" and that is "in heaven."

First, they are not "sinners" as they have been "justified" and imputed righteousness and their spirit is removed from the law of sin that dwells in THE BODY. They are justified spirits made perfect (Heb. 12:23).

Second, the rich man is a sinner who cannot approach God as a spirit.
Here is something else.

This is the profession of a witch! The spirit summoned up by this witch also falsely professed about the exact time Saul would die. So you do not have any credible source for your theory.

You have got to be kidding me? Is your interpretational skills that bad? This is the conclusion to Romans 1:18 against UNREGENERATED UNBELIEVING SINNERS. This is not even found in the context of justification as is Abraham in Roman s 3:24-5:2. Pleeeease attempt to intepret scripture in its context.

Oh pleeeeeease, not again! Did you fail to read Hebrews 11:4 concerning the first prophet and Old Testament Saint that offered a sacrifice (apart from God offering it for Adam and Eve). He is said to be "righteous" BEFORE he offered it and that the sacrifice only gave witness to his faith in the coming Christ, and that remission of sins was by that faith received and justified as was Abraham (Heb. 11:4 with Acts 10:43 with Romans 3:24-5:2). Tell me is there a "righeousness" pleasing to God in fallen man? Is there a "righteousness" outside of Christ's righteouseness? Where then did Abel obtain "righteousness" before the cross??????

Oh my! Has any of your saved loves ones been resurrected yet? If not, does that mean they are in paradise too???? NNE but the "firstfruits" have been resurrected. All of the Old Testament saints are still in the grave including David according to Peter who spoke AFTER the ascension of Christ. So you point is pointless!

Here is a lesson you need to learn. You don't "pray" about what the Bible clearly teaches, you simply receive it. You don't have facts, just twisted interpretations of scriptures jerked out of context.

The ultimate evidence your position is wrong, is that Old Testament saints did partake of redemption benefits (Acts 10:43, Heb. 4:2, 11:1-40; Rom. 4:9-11) which your view demands is impossible as Christ had not yet paid for them on the cross. You can't have your pie and eat it too! Either the cross had to occur first in order to receive redemption benefits, righteousness, remission of sins, entrance into heaven OR it did not! The Biblical evidence is overwhelming that they did receive redemption benefits (justification, imputed righteousness, progressive sanctification, walking by faith, fruit of the Spirit) and entrance into heaven.