What good is a degree if...

1. Moody, Ironside, Spurgeon, Ironically, were involved in the training of others for ministry.

2. How many Spurgeons do we know today? Is God calling you to be the next Spurgeon?

3. It seems like you have made up your mind not to seek formal education. Why all these examples of those who defied the norm?

 

1. To be honest, after I finished my undergrad I had a similar struggle, so I should have really understood where you were coming from.

2. Let me tell you, it's not easy. You are going to get counsel from all over the place. At the end of the day, God will really have to be the one to guide you along. It's not easy. But seek an accredited degree if you can. It's really the best way to go. Make sure you get an accredited undergrad and then work from there.

 

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I agree. As far back as the 1960's in order to teach high school Language Arts in Calif took both a combined BA plus a fifth year in an accredited school. In addition to my BA (in Bible) I needed 45 sem units in English and Education. Later I needed another 30 sem units to teach special education. A year and a half of supervised student teaching also was included in the requirement.

Of course, even after employment as a teacher, one constantly is inserviced. Further, the teacher regulary is evaluated by his principal.

Perhaps that's what is needed, accountability to something besides the conviction that one is inspired and knows all that is necessary to know.

So, to qualify to teach what is a noun or what is a verb to learning disabled 13 year old students, took 5-6 years of education.

But some suppose (not meaning Paul) to teach God's people the Word [IMO a much more complex subject...I found the coursework in the MDiv much more challenging than the **Ed.D. work in Education except for "statistics" ], a quality educational experience is not required because "God tells me what to say." Uh -huh

Bill G.

Calif Standard Teaching Credential, Univ of San Diego
Oregon Handicapped Teaching Credential, Oregon State Uniiv
Public School Teacher 1969-2004

PS: IMO the requisite for a teaching elder as stated by Paul is to understand the Pauline paradosis and to be able to teach saints and refute heretics which requisite, IMO, is best met by formal education since we are removed from that apostolic tradition by social changes, language, and 2000 years of doctrinal evolution which clothes us in assumptions and prejudices we do not even realize. IMO, one good effect of seminary training should be to reveal to us our own fallacies of thinking. **I did not finish the Ed D

James 3:1

 

Does God expect us to study?

Wonder why even Paul was so anxious for Timothy to bring the books and parchments (II Timothy 4:13)? Perhaps he wanted to do a little studying on a few things. Of course, he was formally educated (Acts 22:3). I would think that Paul's exhaustive knowledge of the OT was used of God in Paul's preaching as he reasoned irrefutably with the Jews. Even though God inspired Paul to write Scripture, He used Paul's education and background to accomplish His purpose.

 

I believe that everyone who is able should pursue formal education.

However, if we demand the BA or an MDiv prior to becoming a pastor, then there are many, many small churches who will simply go without a minister.

I highly doubt that all of the elders appointed in the NT churches were educated formally.

I strongly believe in formal education, and I believe that, all things being equal spiritually, the minister with a formal education will have more resources to fulfill his duties. I don't believe, however, that we need to make hard rules.

 

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Good point. Recall too the inspired Luke doing his diligent research to write Gospel. And , yes, some argue, that these guys did not go to our colleges and seminaries, so, why should we, but these guys were inspired and inerrant...we are not!

That is rather an important difference!

Paid, I just think that while true self-confidence may have its good purpose, when it comes to teaching Scripture, it is too easy to think that we are trusting God when , in fact, we are trusting ourselves.

The complexity of Biblical'/Theological issues is evidenced by the number of contradictory interpretations or viewpoints each of which can be well-argued. Witness to this is the current debates over divine impassibilty, for example. There is a complex issue! Or is it? Why don't I just sit crossed-legged , empty my mind, and let God pour into my head the truth about it?

There are two ways to deal with these varied opinings (1) Wow, do I need more learning, or, (2) everyone else is wrong cause I am God's favorite and God tells me what is right.

I'll prayerfully do the first.

 

Does God preserve His Truth through teaching?

According to I Cor. 14:19 and II Tim. 2:2, it seems to imply that God's intended means of preserving and transmitting His Divine Truth is through teaching. How many guys have gone off on tangents when they proudly boasted, "I don't need no teachers--all I need is God to teach me!" Through their ignorance, pride and conceit, they fall into false doctrine and heresy.

On the other hand, I greatly admire those who have achieved great knowledge and learning through self-study because they were not able to do formal schooling due to circumstances. Wilbur M. Smith immediately comes to mind. I collect and highly esteem his books. He always had something worthwhile to say. Contra wise, I am just as comtemptuous of those who have many degrees and little learning.

 

I agree that hard and fast rules may or may not be the best, but I disagree with you when you say:

I know lots of men who are seminary graduates who are bivocational. Many, many good Bible college men are bivocational. I even know a couple of D.Min guys who serve very small churches. So I can't agree with you 100%.

 

I'm not saying that "degreed" individuals aren't ever bivocational. I'm simply saying that I do not believe that there would be a sufficient number of willing and able candidates to fill every single church. Some can serve bivocationally, but others may be saddled with loan debt (not good, but it happens). Some may not be able to afford to relocate, etc., etc.

I believe that formal education is a very good thing (I have greatly benefited!), but I simply cannot see the biblical justification for requiring a degree. Training in some form, of course, is required.

 

Paul,

You have already answered your own question. You already preach every weekend. You already have a home and job. You already like to study on your own. You already have a call. And you already want to attend school.

The answer is easy. Attend a distance learning program that is accredited! Choose either Liberty or Luther Rice. I would recommend LU. You can also cut costs by attending a local community college for general ed credits (one night per week per 3 credit class).

Take your time and enjoy your studies.

 

I have preached for 26 years and have only recently achieved a degree. Many of the topics that I have taught over the years are still a mystery to many who have "higher education". But it was the Holy Spirit that helped me overall. I don't want to attribute this to just "reading on my own", although this was a major factor. If you have been called, then
you have all of the validation you need as far as proclaiming the gospel. I would, however, encourage you to continue your education as this is part of being a good steward as you "grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" (2 Pet. 3:18). May God bless you in your ministry!

 

1. If you wish to answer you can, but you're not obligated to: Why did you seek a degree after all those years with the Spirit's help?

2. This is a genuine question and I wish not to be contentious or to belittle the workings of the Spirit of God. I hope you understand that.

 

Quote:

First, I don't have a problem with anyone getting more education. But I do believe that there are many in the ministry who have never had any formal education that God is using in the ministry with great success. Most of my desire for more education was to open up more doors of opportunity to serve the Lord. God has given me a special ministry and I would like as many people as possible to benefit from it.

 

God uses people with all kinds of education. That doesn't justify or not justify whether they received academic training available to them. God used a donkey, so should we be as dumb as donkeys? How ridiculous or as Chas. Stanley might say, "that is sheer stupidity".

God will use you but you are not to look back and say, "Well God used me so that makes all my decisions about everything related to the ministry all okay". Look, God has determined to use men, fallible men and not so we can look and justify our weak, selfish or lazy decisions. If academic training was not available that is one thing. If providentially it was not within your means then obviously that is one thing. God will bring a master or several masters into your life to teach you.

However, if you have this opportunity and eschew it, thinking you can be master and student, you are only a fool.

If a man COULD NOT obtain academic training, that is one thing. If a man refuses academic training, that is another. Will God use that man? Of course but that man isn't to judge himself so satisfyingly that he can say, "Look, I was right, I didn't get formal training and God used me". Friend, that is God's mercy not the benefit of your stubborn arrogance.

I am glad God is so merciful to use us all. However, when we shun available academic training we are foolish sons who in spite of ourselves will be used.

 

I totally agree with you :sleeping_2:

 

Mr. M,

:thumbs: Well said...


Eddie

 

If a man is called, he will be equipped, one way or another. I started out in 1945. In our minds, we were to get some training and get out into the field of service. Bible College was adequate training as a starter, and self learning took over. We acquired many books and studied constantly. One might say we were obsessed with learning by book and the Book.

Some of us moved on to greater learning at an academic level. I am not sure we became better men for it, but we did gain some status in society. Is that what academia is all about? In the university circles it is, and I fear in some pastoral circles it is also true.

Our primary focus should be on service in ministry, if that is our calling. In this regard, it does not matter to me whether the school is accredited or not. One's learning comes from within and includes our own application of available resources.

I was always heavy into the English language and word developement. The greatest lesson I learned was when one of my professors came to preach at my church. He remarked at one point, "Your pastor will sometimes use words that go over your head. Nevermind, he did that to me all the time." I learned to speak to a child, and then even the lawyer, doctor or educator would also understand the message. Now isn't that the aim in preaching? Make the word clear, and not to impress by degree.

I am at the wrong end of life now, but friends, please take this to heart, and be less impressed by degree, and more in tune with the truth preached. One goal, to serve Him, wherever that may lead.

Cheers,

Jim