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What Happens in the New Birth?...by John Piper

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by TCGreek, Dec 6, 2007.

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  1. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    1. Dr. Piper has had a tremendous influence on the shape of my current theological bent, but I find several contradictions in this sermon of his: What Happens in the New Birth?

    Ouote 1: "In the new birth, the Holy Spirit supernaturally gives us new spiritual life by connecting us with Jesus Christ through faith."

    In this quote, Piper says that the new birth, new spiritual life, comes after connecting with Jesus Christ through faith.

    Quote 2: "This seems to say that God is as free as the wind in causing regeneration."

    Then this seems to put regeneration (a term I believe Piper is using for the New Birth) before faith.

    Quote 3 (taken from a related sermon: How I can Hope? New Birth!): "The goal of God in the work of regeneration is to create in our heart a living hope. "Born anew unto a living hope." But if God's aim in regeneration is to beget a new little babe who hopes in the mercy of God, then God must have a hopeful message ready for that little babe to believe when he's born. And that message is the good news that Jesus died and rose again for the salvation of sinners."

    2. I must admit, Piper is not totally clear.
     
    #1 TCGreek, Dec 6, 2007
  2. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    Yes...I read part one a week or two ago and I felt it was not clear...or maybe even wishy washy.
    Maybe he will pull it all together later...where I understand what he means.

    At this point...its weak
     
    #2 Jarthur001, Dec 6, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 6, 2007
  3. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    Well, I'm glad someone else saw the weakness of what he is saying.
     
    #3 TCGreek, Dec 6, 2007
  4. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    Norm Geisler does the same thing in pretending to agree with the Calvinists. :laugh:

    I think the point of the whole exercise is to see that the "change," the regeneration, doesn't come upon us "undetected." It doesn't "sneak up on us" so that one day we weren't and the next day we were regenerated. There has to be a "trigger" in us that is "pulled" whereby we voluntarily receive regeneration, indwelling, the new birth, the new nature, etc. That "trigger" appears to be faith or belief, Rom 4:5.

    skypair
     
    #4 skypair, Dec 7, 2007
  5. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    1. I see what you are saying, Skypair, but for me, it is not the very nature of Regeneration I am arguing.

    2. Rather, I am looking for consistency in Piper: if regeneration precedes faith, then maintain that. If regeneration comes after faith, then maintain that position. Consistency.
     
    #5 TCGreek, Dec 7, 2007
  6. mcdirector

    mcdirector Active Member

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    I haven't had time to listen to the sermon, but maybe it was just poorly prepared or presented. Even as good a math teacher as I am (don't you dare snicker!), sometimes what I want to present isn't well presented and I'm glad it wasn't caught on tape . . .
     
    #6 mcdirector, Dec 7, 2007
  7. SBCPreacher

    SBCPreacher Active Member
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    *snicker* *snicker*
     
    #7 SBCPreacher, Dec 7, 2007
  8. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Brave man... :)
     
    #8 webdog, Dec 7, 2007
  9. mcdirector

    mcdirector Active Member

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    That wasn't what I was thinking . . .
     
    #9 mcdirector, Dec 7, 2007
  10. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    TC,

    Once when Adrian Rogers was sliding slowly into ill health, he made a Calvinist statement that I could only think came from his mind being occupied with more personally tragic issues.

    skypair
     
    #10 skypair, Dec 8, 2007
  11. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    Are you saying that this inconsistency on the part of Piper is owing to some personal issues?
     
    #11 TCGreek, Dec 8, 2007
  12. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    I'm guessing. But I'm trying to show compassion for human weakness.

    skypair
     
    #12 skypair, Dec 9, 2007
  13. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    That's awfully kind of you, Skypair.
     
    #13 TCGreek, Dec 9, 2007
  14. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    How ludicrous to blame this on some personal issue. I feel sorry for the mentally ill, then, since they will all lapse into arminian gibberish. :eek:

    Piper's WRITING is clear and consistent; his sermons may not be. Same with most. I've seen some transcripts of Spurgeon's sermons that would no be consistent with his theological writing.
     
    #14 Dr. Bob, Dec 9, 2007
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