WHAT IF Pretribulation doctrine is wrong....

I do looking forward for new heavens and a new earth shall be create after the end of the age/world, that would be at the second coming - 2 Peter 3:12-13.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Earth will not be exploded like as classic movie 'Star Wars' 1977, Death Star shoot laser fired strike against the planet exploded. This same earth shall not be exploded.

My understand of 'end of the age/world' means end of the humankind era, also end of the Satan's works. Everything of the wicked will be destroyed that would be at the last day. As the end will be arrive at the second coming of Christ.


IF a person do not endure, will be end in HELL!!!!

Please read the context of John chapter 15 about the vine. Christ tells us, that we must be abide in Christ, or, if we do not abide, then we would be cast away into fire - John 15:6.

Matt 10:22 & Matt 24:13 both are obivous against OSAS doctrine!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Dr. Bob Griffin,

The reason I posted at topic- 'WHAT IF Pretribulation doctrine is wrong', because.

LadyEagle said,

That why I reply it back to discuss on about the end of the world.

Pretribulation doctrine always invlove with Eschatolog doctrine issue, we know that.

I do not post in the wrong place. I do believe earth shall be destroy at the end of the age at His coming - 2 Peter 3:10 by fire. So, we are looking forward for a new earth - 2 Peter 3:12-13.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Ed,

Matt 10:22 & Matt 24:13 is a serious matter relate with salvation. Because Christ warns to us - Matt 24:4 - "TAKE HEED that NO man deceive you." Christ knows many Christians shall be deceived. Even today, many Christians are already deceived by false teachings, religions. Christ warns us in Matt 24:24 many Christians shall be deceived for believing the lies of teachings and religions. But, never know several Christians MIGHT be decived to believe in Antichrist by worshipping him.

The reason pretribulationism depends on OSAS so strongly, because, many pastors won't warning to CHRISTIANS about the 666, because, that is conflict with OSAS doctrine.

Well, OSAS doctrine is dangerously error.

Rev. 14:9-12 is a VERY SERIOUS warning to everyone either unbelievers or believers, who have an ear(deaf-eye) LET HIM HEAR(Rev. 13:9), IF any person worship the Antichrist, his image, receive his mark on either right hand or forehead, then person shall suffer the wrath of God punish on that person, send person to hell(lake of fire)!

Obivously, Rev. 14:9-12 is not OSAS doctrine.

On Matt 24:13... It also, telling us that we should be endure with patience while face persecutions, do not give up till the end(death or Christ comes) THEN be saved.

Same with Rev. 2:10 tells us, any person who endure with tribulations TILL death shall receive the crown of life.

OSAS pastors often use John 3:16 to prove OSAS because of security salvation. I do LOVE John 3:16 is a beautiful verse! But, OSAS pastors often ignore the hermenuetic rule - Interpreting in CONTEXTUALLY.

Why? Please read John 3:19-21 say, "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men LOVED darkness rather than light, because their DEEDS were evil. For every one that DOETH EVIL HATETH the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds be reproved. But he that DOETH TRUTH cometh to the light, that his DEEDS may be MADE MANIFEST, that they are WROUGHT in God."

Suppose, a person would saying, "I believe in Jesus Christ, I am saved, that's it, I will go to heaven no matter how bad or good I am doing, I still go to heaven."

Being believeD in Christ is not enough.

Faiht MUST prove with ACTION.

Look at the examples of the Old testament saints of Hebrews chapter 11. These were action with their faith.

If we do NOT move, then our faith dead.

Look to James 2:26 - "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith WITHOUT work is dead also."

Now back to John 3:16 again.

I realized word, 'believeth' is in KJV. I looked at Interlinear Greek-English book by Jay P. Green Sr. in Textus Receptus Greek word for 'believeth' is believING. I rather follow Greek translation comes first before KJV. Because KJV was translated from Greek.

Believing does not mean that we finally now believeD in Christ is offically saved for good. Believing means we keep on believing on Jesus Christ through our life, long as our salvation is safe.

Look at the example of Romans chapter 11, that Jews were cut off from the tree because of their unbelief, so, we should FEAR of God - Romans 11:20.

Matt 10:28 tells us, that we should fear of God, because He is powerful and justified to judge us.

Phil. 2:12 - "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have ALWAYS OBEYED, not as in my presence only, but NOW much more in my absence, [/B]work out your own salvation with FEAR and TREMBLING[/B]"

Paul told them, no matter what where Paul is, in presence or asbsence, they HAVE to work out of their own salvation with fear and trembling, because God is watching us 24 hours, the reason is, God shall judge our works in that judgement day.

Yes, it is possible that any Christians will be deceived - Matt 24:24 by false teachings, false relgions, EVEN will believe on Antichrist, think he is their true Messiah/Christ, NEVER, NEVER, know what IF a Christian might receive the mark of the beast, will go to lake of fire! - Rev. 14:9-12.

I know why, many pretrib pastors do not want to preach to their own congregation on that, because of OSAS doctrine reason.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Ed,

Notice word, 'believeth' of John 3:16 in KJV. I looked in Interlinear Greek-English book by Jay P.Green Sr. Look at Greek translation (Textus Receptus) it says, 'BelievING'.

Believing means we keep the faith and abide. Bible promises us, we shall have eternal life while believing in Jesus Christ.

If we stopped believing, then we shall be cast away - John 15:6 and Romans 11:20,22.

If we stopped FOLLOWING Christ, God shall loose us out of his hand - John 10:27-29.

Many OSAS pastors avoid teaching on Matt 25:26-30. Also, avoid for warn the congregation about the mark of the beast of Rev. 13:9-18 & Rev. 14:9-11. Because Matt. 25:26-30; Rev. 13:9-18; and Rev. 14:9-11 is very strongly serious warning to us, and obivously, these are against osas doctrine.

Pretrib pastors strong depend on osas doctrine.

I believe every Christian ought take heed warnings from the Bible, lest them to be deceive by any kinds of teachings - Matt. 24:24.

Never know what IF any Christians might worshipping the false Messiah, it might happen to them.

Do not forget the lesson of Daniel chapter 3 talks about three men - Shadrach, Meshach and abednego refuse to bow doen and worship before the statute image of King Nebuchadnezzar.

MOST of people were bow down and worshipped before the statute. Because they were fear of King Neb. gave the instruction to them, if anyone refuse to bow down, shall cast into the furnace. That why they prefer to stay alive and worshipping the staute.

Three men were brave and have faith in God, refuse bow down before it, and they have confidence in God, no matter what happen tothem. They were not afriad being cast into the furnace.

Daniel chapter 3 is the type of Revelation chapter 13.

Three men are the type of tribulation saints. The statute of King Neb. is the type of the image of the beast. Cast into furance is the type of martyers of tribulation saints.

I would NOT be surprise that several Christians WOULD worshipping the beast, and receive the mark of the beast, Christians will go to hell for it - Rev. 14:9-11.

Rev. 14:9-11 is a VERY SERIOUS warning to us, that we ought to be aware of it, so, we shall not be deceived- Matt 24:24.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

jshurley04,

OSAS means 'Once Saved Awals Saved'.

About 98% of Independent Fundamental Baptist churches teachijg on that, many pastors do not use that term, 'osas', but, they teaching, 'security salvation'. I am an truly baptist. Even I am IFB. I was a student at Midwestern Baptist College in Pontiac, MI where Dr. Tom Malone is President. That college is Independent Fundamental Baptist, pretribulation, premillennial.

Myself was pretrib/premill before.

First, I heard often, many IFB people always saying, 'I am a Bible believer'. I understand that the, word, 'fundamental', they saying, we follow the Bible everything 100% in intepreting correctly. Fundamental is a foundation and support base upon the Bible.

I thought IFB always 100% correct doctrine with God's Word. I thought pretribulation/premillennial is a true doctrine.

Myself was strong pretrib and premill before.

Even, I before strong believe security salvation, because what the baptists believe. I know the security salvation very well base on the Bible, as what baptists intepreting it. I enjoyed read Late Dr. Curtis Hutson's two books - 'Crystal Salvation' about his sermons of salvation. His sermons on salvation was very simple. I thought IFB's doctrine of salvation always right and truth.

First, in 1992, my friends showed me of 2 Thess. 2:1-3, and Matt. 24:29-31. Even, they are IFB. I told them, "When I read verses, I MUST follow and agree what God's Word says." When I read these verses, it hit me so hard, and so shocked myself, I understood them very clear, I cna't believe these are conflict with pretrib doctrine. The next day I immediated left pretrib camp after I spend many hours studied on the Bible on rapture.

I never back to pretrib again. Because I prefer follow the Bible than men's teaching - Colossians 2:8.

I know Eph. 1:13 very well.

Yes, it is true, when we hear the gospel, the trust in Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit come into our body.

But, look to Eph. 4:30 says, "And GRIEVE not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed UNTO the day of redemption."

Paul warns us, that we do not hurt or sin against the Holy Spirit while H.S. sealed in us, or if any person hurt or sin against the Holy Spirit, then Holy Spirit will stop use person. The Holy Spirit never leave us, but a person turn away from the Holy Spirit, God allows person go.

Please read the parable of Luke 15:12-32. Christ tells us, a person who want to leave in his own freewill way. Father allows his son go. Same with the Holy Spirit let person go while in rebellion and sin against God, become lost - verse 32.

Remember Esau. Easu gave the birthright to Jacob. And Esau never get it back again - Heb. 12:16-17.

At the first place, a person did repented and ask Christ to forgive and saved. Then, later if a person stopped serving the Lord, and turn away back to world, never repent to God all the way to death, will be remain lost - Luke 15:32.

Christ says, a son makes decision to repent back to his father, then become live and found AGAIN - Luke 15:32. OR..... IF a person still in sinning and refuse repent to God till death, remain lose, and go to hell.


Pretrib teaches 'church' is not find in Revelation 4 to 19, to prove that church is not on earth, they are rapture before tribulation. But, Revelation 4 to 19 do not saying, that the 'church' is up IN the heaven either. Pretrib saying, the church is shown in Revelation chapter 19 about the marriage of Lamb. I agree with them. Yet, word, 'church' is not appear in Revelation 19. Pretrib saying, church is shown in Revelation chapter 20, that the church shall reign with Christ. I agree with them. Yet, word, 'church' is not appear in Revelation chapter 20. Pretrib saying, the church is shown in Revelation chapter 21, church shall dwell in New Jerusalem with Christ. I agree with them. Yet, the word, 'church' is not appear in Revelation chapter 21.

Does that mean, church is EXCLUDE from Revelation chapter 19,20,21 because it is not appear there???

The whole book of Revelation is given message to the churches - Rev. 1:4 & Rev. 22:16. Church is 'sandwiche' together in the book of Revelation.

Pretrib intepreting Rev. 4:1 is rapture.

But, they misinterpreting it. Rev. 4:1 is not talking to the churches. Rev. 4:1 was talking to John alone. Rev. 4:1 is the vision, that John heard and saw the angel in the heaven, angel says to him, 'Come up hither'. 'Come up hither'is not rapture. 'Come up hither' means come up here.

Illustration- Chris plays softball game with his friends outside in his home yard. When Chris swing with the bat hit the ball, it fly over in the sky, it hits the window of his house. While Chris' Dad reading newspaper in the living room, suddenly, he hears noisy above, so, he walk up and check out, he notice the window in his bedroom is broken. Then, Dad walks to the broken window, and he notice his son with his friends outside. He yelled at Christ, "Chris! Please come up hither now!" . Chris runs to the house, run upstair to see Dad. Dad rebukes to his son about the window.

'Come up hither' means a person asks to person, to tell person, 'please come here'.
It is not rapture.

The angel asked John to come up here. JOhn's vision, that his spirit was moving up to meet the angel in the heaven.

'Come hither' find three times in Revelation 4:1; 17:1; and 21:9, speak TO John, to come here.

Rev. 4:1 say nothing about the gathering together, Christ decend out heaven, resurrection, second advent. Nothing.

Rev. 4:1 talk about John was called to come up in the vision.

Dispensationalism/pretribulationism doctrine sounds like racism(anti-semitism) to me.

Because, the illustrate of rapture: When the rapture comes, Gentiles(Church) fly away and saying to Jews(Israel) on earth, "HA! HA! You suffering! I fly home!!"

That is not nice.

The marriage of the Lamb will not be occur till at the end of Tribulation in Revelation 19.

Does the Bible saying that Adam, Abraham, Moses, David, Old Testament saints are NOT the part of the Christ's wife???? Same as the question is, does the Bible saying the saints of Rev. 13:7 is NOT the part of Christ's wife???

God's plan of salvation never change since creation to the end of the world. The gospel of salvation always the same since Pentacost day, and it will be continue through great tribulation till Christ comes - Matt 28:19-20. Christ tells us, He always with us TILL the end of the age/world. That means, the gospel will stay the same and will be continue through great tribulation all the way to the end - Matt 24:14 & Matt 28:19-20.

Often, pretrib saying, tribulation period is for Israel only, because they use Jer. 30:7 - 'Jacob's trouble'. They saying, 'Jacob's trouble' means 7 year of tribulation period for Israel. But, they misintereping what Jer. 30:7 talking about.

You have to read whole context of Jeremiah chapter 30 and 31 talk about warning to Israel, that God will punish them, by send Babylon to take over Israel, and taken them into captivity. Jeremiah 30:7 already fulfilled about 2500 years ago. Jere,iah 30:7 do nothing with us about the future tribulation period. Jeremiah 30:7 is historically, and it already fulfilled, that Israel was takeover by Babylon, and they were taken into captivity. That why, it says, 'Jacob's trouble', because when Babylon invaded Jerusalem, the building of Solomon's temple was destroyed, many Jews were killed, and taken Jews into captivity. But later, Jews were saved out of it means they were freed from captivity 70 years later.

Jer. 30:7 already fulfilled about 2500 years ago.

We are appointed for tribulation - 1 Thess. 3:3-4, because Christ suffered for us, so, therefore, we should follow Christ's example - 1 Peter 2:21.

By the way, I believe Christ's blood washed our sins away.

Without his blood, no forgive. Christ's blood is so important doctrine to us.

We do not need sacrifices,offerings of animals anymore. now Christ is our Lamb, we are the priests, we have right to ask Christ to forgive us our sins daily 24 hours. If we do not ask him, neither he will forgive our sins - 1 John 1:9.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Ed,

I will reply back to you tomorrow, because I have to work tonight - 3rd shift.