1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

What if the athiests are wrong & there REALLY is God?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by LadyEagle, Mar 21, 2002.

  1. radiochemist

    radiochemist Guest

    >>>>>Jews aren't going to heaven. I know that we all have have jewish freinds that we
    love, but the sad truth of the matter is that the only way to heaven is through Christ <<<<<<<<<<<

    So let me get this straight. There is NOTHING a Jew can do now to make it to heaven?
     
  2. tulpje

    tulpje Guest

    Yes there is something they can do! They can accept Jesus as their Savior! Some do!

    I'm sorry but I do not accept God as a woman....
     
  3. wishtolearn

    wishtolearn New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2001
    Messages:
    256
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes there is something they can do! They can accept Jesus as their Savior! Some do!

    I'm sorry but I do not accept God as a woman....
    </font>[/QUOTE]Do Jews accept God as a woman? HOw is that relevant? What about people in cultures in the middle of the Amazon who have never heard of Christ let alone seen a Christian person? Do you actually think God created them just to burn in Hell? There are a lot of Jews in the world, I'd sure hate to be the one to tell them they're not going to Heaven, tulpje.
     
  4. jasonW*

    jasonW* New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2002
    Messages:
    599
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is just plain nonsense. If I were to all of the sudden give up meat because of some sort of vegetarian conversion, I would be modifying my lifestyle. There are costs to almost anything you do, to say there is not is nonsense. And besides, what does this have to do with Pascal's Wager? Just because there is cost to actions doesn't mean Pascal's Wager is void of value.

    As for the uneducated comments about giving up free will, rationality and intellectual life...well...they are just that. Uneducated. Do you really think that as soon as one becomes Christian they loose they're free will? They give it up? Rationality? Intellectual life? You either don't understand any central tenant of Christianity or you are so hardened towards Christians and Christianity that you can't see how one could be a Christian and exceedingly rational and intellectual. I am sorry for this. I am sorry you wrongly believe this hateful, ignorant stance.

    I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you have never taken even slightly advanced math, chemistry or physics. If you had explored any of these subjects in any matter other than trivial you would find that simply proofs are expounded upon to give greater insight into other areas. Pascal's Wager, while designed to combat the irrationality of Atheism over an agnostic god (not the Christian God), could easily be applied to other areas by substituting atheism and the agnostic god with other systems.

    If you were to start and apply them against each other, take the winner of round one and then pit that winner against another system. Keep doing this until you are left with only one winner. You will find it is Christianity.

    Ex. Atheism vs. Hinduism. Winner Hinduism.
    Hinduism vs. Islam Winner. Islam
    Islam vs. Christianity. Winner Christianity.

    This is a simple example with no proof given for each round. You can do the research yourself, it would make for an interesting homework assignment.
    These two should be lumped together as they are similar thought processes.

    1. It matters not how you come to God, only that you do. Saying that you cannot "choose to believe" is ignorance verbalized. Rationality is one of the way that many people come to God. To quote Ravi Zacharias; "What I believe in my heart has to make sense in my mind".

    I would be lying to myself if I were to accept anything without extensive research into the areas, and all surrounding areas. Just because I am extremely rational and logical, almost to a fault, has no bearing on my salvation as long as I truly believe and put faith in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (which I do).

    2. If I sincerely love God, do you really think He cares whether I came to Him because of faith, fear, pain or reason? Is there only one way to justify yourBy your (faulty) logic, an alcoholic whom came to Christ through desperation is not truly a Christian because you cannot come to believe in Christ save through faith alone. This is counter to any biblical principle. It matters not how, only that you do.

    I have a feeling that you mean salvation when you say 'choose to believe'. If that is so, you have a point. No one can be saved because of logic or desperation or whatever. The only way to salvation is putting your faith in Christ our Lord. This does not, however, mean you cannot rationally realize the answer then choose to put your faith in Christ. The link you were trying to make is not thin, it does not exist.

    3. Someone could easily rationalize a belief then come to actually believe it afterwards. It may take some time, but it is most assuredly plausible, let alone possible.

    I find it amusing that atheists, people who believe in nothing, now say that even if there was something to believe in, only faith is an acceptable reason to believe.

    Rational and logical is just what Pascal's Wager is. To say otherwise is to spout tired and old nonsense mostly held by irrational atheists who are against anything which may lead people to God. I am truly sorry you feel this way, but then again, I am not surprised.

    jason
     
  5. jasonW*

    jasonW* New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2002
    Messages:
    599
    Likes Received:
    0
    So now a religion has to contain hellfire and damnation to be a true religion? Man! These athiestic requirements keep changing on me!

    Pascal's Wager has NOTHING to do with specific hellfire and damnation. It is a Risk vs. Reward determination system. Simple, elegant and logical. Don't make it harder than it has to be.

    Ok, this is not that tough. Simply take any religion or belief system and way the exclucivities of the systems agianst each other. You will see either that one has claims of reincarnation,nothing,eternal life/damnation or something else. These would be the rewards or concenquences.

    Now, take the systems and compare them...see if there are any contradictions between the systems leaving one wanting or one lesser than the other.

    Seriously, this is not rocket science.

    Well...

    Islam vs Christianity.

    Islam: Belief in the on true God, Allah. You only need to proclaim belief in the one true god. Jesus was a prophet (ie. Everything He said on the matter of religion is true).

    Christianity: Belief in the one true God in three forms. Put faith in Jesus for salvation...follow Jesus. Jesus said. "I am the way, the truth and the light. No man comes to the father but through me". (Jesus claimed to be the Son of God...God come to walk among and save man)

    Therefore, if Islam is true, its requirements for salvation are fulfilled in Christianity...and...Islam is false based upon its own claim that Jesus was a prophet.

    Well...a good ole encyclopedia would probably do. If you don't know where to find one, I am sure a library near you would have one. If you don't know where a library is, ask someone...

    If not the library...start to read a comparative religion book...or maybe something by the immensly intelligent author Ravi Zacharias ('Jesus Among Other Gods' is a pretty good book).

    jason

    EDITED TO PROVIED LINK TO RAVI'S PAGE:

    Ravi Zacharias

    He even has a bunch of free audio tracks for those of you who don't like to read.

    [ March 26, 2002, 04:46 PM: Message edited by: jasonW* ]
     
  6. Alex

    Alex New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2002
    Messages:
    288
    Likes Received:
    0
    You have evidenc of a God. Just smell the Roses! Look around you. Look at yourself. How can anyone deny the existance of a Creator? Evidently you haven't read much of the Bible. God loves all.......even you as an Athiest. God chose to give us a free will choice meaning to accept or reject Him. Much the same as if you have children and they are grown, they make there own choices, many wrong ones along the earthly journey of life. We all have. Doesn't the one's who love us get mad about our choices in life? They know we will have to pay the penatily of of BAD choices.

    God does not want any to go to hell, including you, but as the Creator and Father, He has to punish those who fail him just as we would punish or children. If you punish your children, does that mean that you do not love them?

    Without going into detail, the Christian Bible(Word of God), has more proof than ANY other religion as to it being fact.

    But if God had given us the total proof that you seem to need, then why didn't He just make robots or clones.? God wants us to love Him based on FAITH not fear or by some proof of His deity.

    There are many who believe in Jesus BUT will not accept Him as their Savior. There is no difference between them and you as you are both lost. A simple definition of hell is "Separation from God for eternity". To me, it is idiodic to NOT take a path in life directed by Jesus/God. What's wrong, are you afraid to give up some earthly pleasures? I pray ever night for the lost, which includes you. I don't have to know you in a prayer as God already knows who I am praying for. I may seem a little harsh, but, believe it or not, I love you. We are held by the belief in the Christian God to love others as we love ourselves. If you cannot love youeself as God's creation, how can you love your neighbor? Don't look for evudence, look for the thuth that you will find only through accepting Jesus Christ as you Lord and Savior.........

    God Bless............Alex
     
  7. Joy

    Joy New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2001
    Messages:
    2,637
    Likes Received:
    0
    God could not be worshipped as God if He had not created man with the freedom to choose. Forced worship or companionship undercuts itself. That is why God did create man with a choice, and when man chose to sin, fellowship between God and man was broken because of God's holy nature. Holiness can not have fellowship with evil.

    God, in His mercy, created a way for man to come back into fellowship with God and correct the situation, but again, man has the choice. If God snapped his fingers and immediately chose to bring every one to heaven no matter what, then He would be violating His own Holy nature by having fellowship with evil, and thus, He would no longer be God; and man's choice and free will would be violated, and again, forced worship undercuts itself.
     
  8. Given the numbers of errors (scientific, historical, archaeological, textual) in the bible, this is not the case.
     
  9. Well...

    Islam vs Christianity.

    Islam: Belief in the on true God, Allah. You only need to proclaim belief in the one true god. Jesus was a prophet (ie. Everything He said on the matter of religion is true).
    </font>[/QUOTE]Wrong. Everything that Jesus said as recorded in the Quran and hadith is true.

    Absolutely false. Your ignorance of Islam is showing. Islam rejects Christianity, and the attempt to equate Christ with Allah is blasphemy and polytheism. And in Islam, polytheism will get you into hell very quickly.
     
  10. jasonW*

    jasonW* New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2002
    Messages:
    599
    Likes Received:
    0
    Given the numbers of errors (scientific, historical, archaeological, textual) in the bible, this is not the case.</font>[/QUOTE]That's funny. Thanks.

    Oh...it wasn't supposed to be funny? Ok. You will need to provide some info before you get laughed off the board.

    jason
     
  11. jasonW*

    jasonW* New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2002
    Messages:
    599
    Likes Received:
    0
    And your point would be...?

    I never said what he said in the Quran or Hadith wasn't true..what I said was in the bible he said something...which basically cannot make him the prophet that Islam claims him to be without also being the savior.

    Actually, I believe your critical reasoning skills are lacking.

    Islam dismisses christianity and only accepts God the Father (in the name of allah)...which BTW, closely resembles Judaism..with the deviation that God favored a different son of Abraham.

    Christianity is a belief in one God, in three forms. Therefore....it is not polytheism.

    Still with me?

    So, belief and publicly proclaiming this belief would fulfill these requirements. Of course I am leaving off the prayer to the east (or was it west) 5 times a day, the mecca trip..etc....etc..but as I was told by several muslims...you only have to believe in allah.

    jason
     
  12. Given the numbers of errors (scientific, historical, archaeological, textual) in the bible, this is not the case.</font>[/QUOTE]That's funny. Thanks.

    Oh...it wasn't supposed to be funny? Ok. You will need to provide some info before you get laughed off the board.

    jason
    </font>[/QUOTE]1. The biblical description of the creation of the earth and origin of life.

    2. Timeframes for the above.

    3. A worldwide flood.

    4. The Tower of Babel.

    5. Presence of Israelites in Egypt, and an "exodus" from Egypt

    That should do for starters.
     
  13. That what you clamed above is different from what I said. Which invalidates your entire argument about comparing the two religions.

    In your original post on the topic, you said that Islam believed that:

    In fact, Islam only believes that the words of Jesus recorded in the Koran and Hadith are true.

    Islam does not believe that any words of Jesus in the Gospels are true.


    Flawed logic. You assume that Islam accepts the biblical record as valid. It does not. Therefore any alleged text of Jesus' words found in the bible is irrelevant and does not need to be considered (told to you, in the Islamic view, to clarify their standpoint).

    Unlikely, as we just saw above.

    Actually, it resembles Judaism in some areas. And it resembles christianity in others.

    Moreover it accepts Jesus, but not as co-equal with Allah.

    Uh, no. You are, of course, correct in saying that Allah favored a different son.

    But you are incorrect in implying that Islam is merely a mirror image of Judaism, that favored Ishmael instead of Israel. I.e., Islam is not a monotheism that turned left, instead of right, at some fork in the road.

    In Islam, the Trinity is an impossibility and a contradiction. And it is specifically pointed out as a form of polytheism (shirk, in Arabic; and those who believe in it are called mushrikiin).

    :rolleyes:
    Far ahead of you, actually, waiting for you to catch up.

    On the contrary.
    A belief and public declaration in a Trinity would be a guaranteed way to go to hell in Islam.
     
  14. Let me help. :D

    Jason, here is a web page from IslamOnline.Net that explains the difference for you. It's a grid table comparison between core beliefs of Islam vs. those of Christianity.

    http://www.muslims.net/english/discover/discover9.shtml

    For those of you who are unable (or reluctant) to connect to the site, here is the relevant section. Islam in bold:

    ---

    The New Testament as well as the Old Testament very clearly says that GOD IS ONLY ONE.

    The Qur’an too says that GOD IS ONLY ONE

    ---

    God is a Trinity while being a Unity; that is, there are three different persons in the One God.

    God is One and One Only.

    ---

    God has an only Begotten Son called Jesus Christ.

    God doesn't beget; so He has no son.

    ---

    God became man, and lived on earth.

    God is Transcendent and Eternal.

    ---

    God had to suffer on the cross and die as a man to save mankind from sin.

    God does not die nor needs to save man from sin in this way.

    ---

    Jesus was the Son of God born of Mary.

    Jesus was Mary's son; but not God's son.

    ---

    The ‘Comforter’ mentioned in John 16: 7, and the ‘Spirit of Truth’ mentioned in John 16: 13 is the Holy Ghost, one of the three persons in God

    The ‘Comforter’ mentioned in John 16: 7 and the ‘Spirit of Truth’ mentioned in John 16: 13 is Muhammad the Last Prophet of God.
     
  15. tulpje

    tulpje Guest

    Islam is like Judiasm in that it goes according to the law. In Islam and the Jewish religions, you have to do good works ie eat the right kinds of foods pray x amount of times a day, make pilgramages... be a suicide bomber.... get circumcized. and everyone is dead in there sins beacause our good works are filthy rags to God Isaiah 64:6 "All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away." Christ is the New Covenant that was promised in the Old Testiment. Christ himself said in John 5:39,"These are the Scriptures that testify about me."
     
  16. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Messages:
    22,028
    Likes Received:
    1
    :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

    And according to radical Islam, if you suicide bomb for the jihad, you will go to paradise and be greeted by 72 black eyed virgins, too. :rolleyes:
     
  17. tulpje

    tulpje Guest

    I simply cannot believe that the Baptists are allowing someone to promote Islam here, I know that I am lucky that they are not as conservative as I am because I would not be allowed here either, but PLEASE! ISLAM send more pleaple to eternal fire every day then any other religion in the world. AND it's the fastest spreding religion! Do you want some of our Brothers and Sisters falling for Satan's lie? Please Moderators!!! Put your foot down!
     
  18. cricket

    cricket Guest

    !!! AND! your statements might matter, if in fact anyone was "promoting Islam"! (!!!!!)

    Where on earth are you getting that?

    From the comparisons between Islam and Christianity, and how this relates to Pascal's Wager?
     
  19. Correcting erroneous statements about Islam is not the same as promoting it.

    If someone said that there were five gospels, and you said, "no, there are only four" - would that be promoting christianity?

    Of course not.
     
  20. I await your evidence on the items that I mentioned above. But I don't have high hopes that you'll ever present any.

    And according to radical christianity, if you blow up abortion clinics, that is doing the work of the Lord and a good thing in the sight of God.

    Did your comment have a point, EL911?
     
Loading...