What if you did believe you could not loose salvation?

The whole free will argument is almost always misunderstood and thus the argument misses the mark.

Man has free will. Noone should dare deny this. Man has the freedom to choose things for himself. He is not a robot. Again, noone should deny this obvious facts. The real question is: why does man do that which he does? What is the reason? Your answer is that he just simply chooses to do it. This is no answer at all. Why? Why did David commit adultery with Bathsheba and then have her husband murdered? Why did Peter deny Jesus 3 times? Why do men choose evil over good, sin over obedience, following the world over following God? Why do some men believe the gospel while others reject it? Your answer to all of the above is, "I don't know." Again, that is no answer at all.

Man has free will, but there must be a reason behind his actions, his choices. Why does a man choose to sin? Well, he must have a reason. Why does a man cheat on his wife with another woman? Well, there must be a reason. Perhaps it is because she is attractive. Perhaps it is because he is bored with his life. Whatever the reason, there must be one. But really, why risk so much harm, and why, even if the possible outcome is known, does he still do it? The root cause, the main answer must be that this was somehow desirable to him, so desirable that it was worth it. Why would something like adultery be desirable to a man? Now there is a good question.

To answer that question one must understand where man came from. Man was originally made good and very good. We have this on the authority of the bible. But we find that Adam chose to sin. He chose to do it. He had free will and he was good, yet he chose sin. Why? Well, we find that his wife sinned and offered the forbidden fruit to him. Why did she sin? Well, we find that the devil tempted her. Ok, but what would make her violate the clear commandment of God? Satan lied to her, deceived her. Not only that, but the lie he deceived her with is crucial. He deceived her with a lie that said "God doesn't have your best interests at heart, but I do. Leave God and His plans and follow me. I'll show you the way." Man, that day, threw off God's leadership and embarked on his own path, one marked out by the devil. We find today that the world system that man is so fond of following is lead by Satan. Man threw off God and followed the Devil, all the while convincing himself it was in his best interest to do so, and thinking that doing so he could make himself a god.

Man, in short, is now under the spiritual leadership of the devil. Paul states that if our gospel be hid it is hid to them that are lost, in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them that believe not lest the light of the glorious gospel should shine unto them. Man is under a sort of natural darkness to the truths of the gospel because he is under the spiritual leadership of Satan. He is following the course of this world, the prince of the power of the air. This is man's natural state. In this state man is perfectly free to choose any action. He could do the right thing. He could choose the right path. But I have a question for you: why is it that Christians who are following the spiritual leadership of Christ tend to choose the good over the evil in most circumstances? Is it just happenstance? The person has free will. He can choose what he wants to do, but often times we find him doing things pleasing to God. Many times he will be unaware of this, just doing it as if it were natural. Why? Well, the answer is because it is natural. He is under good sprititual guidance. Paul says we have an inward man who delights in the law of God. We have that law written on our hearts. Furthermore, this man has been following Christ and trying to mold his life to Christ's. He can choose the evil, but finds himself oftentimes choosing the good. He has free will but is predesposed to choose the good.

In much the same way, a person who is under the spiritual guidance of Satan, following the world and sin, is going to be living in the lusts of his flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and mind. He has free will. He could choose to be faithfull to his spouse, but instead commits adultery. He could be honest but instead defrauds people of their retirements. He could be nice but instead abducts women and brutalizes them. The person has free will but chooses evil because evil is more natural to him. It is desirable to him. He is following the god of this world. He is following the outward man, who loves sin and hates God's law.

 

If I thought I could lose my salvation, then I would think that my efforts contributed to it (like the papists) and that my efforts must maintain it, and I would be without hope and live in fear.

 

Since I understand the truth that my eternal destiny is 100% secure, there is growth, (increasing rightiousness) joy, and a constant lessening of sin in my life.

If I held to the extreme error that I could sin my way out of salvation, my life would be a mess right now. I would be living the life of a hypocrit, and I would be caught in the "sin and lose salvation/confess and be saved again" merry-go-round nonsense.

Saved...lost again...saved again..lost again...saved again...lost again...saved again, lost again, etc etc etc...

What a tragic thing it is to "teach" people into such a horrendous error.

 

We are not glorified yet, the process is not finished yet then the result is unknown. Is that correct?

 

Possibly yes.
But do you have free will now?

 

That's what I had on my mind when I replied ^ 'Possibly yes'. There are fallen angels.

 

That's an out of the blue quote.
You can argue till the end of the times but the fact is, right now you are not glorified in heaven yet.
Please, would you define what 'salvation' and 'being saved' mean?
Thanks.

 

On a side note, its "lose", not "loose"

:thumbs:

 

The thread title is: What if you did believe you could not loose salvation?
I just want to understand what I am hypothetically not losing. If it's even hypothetically possible.
That is linked to my hypothetical future life.

 

Thats not really true.

It would be true if you said "someone who believes in eternal security, yet lives a life defined by wanton, care free, happy sinning with no concern"


THAT would be true.

But to say that someone sinning proves they are lost would mean that you and I and everyone else on this website are lost and hell bound.

The fact is that I still sin, YOU still sin, we ALL still sin.

The difference between us an lost people is that we dont WANT to sin. We wish we didnt, and we strive to not sin.

We seek and try to live consistent with our eternal "standing", which of course is that we are completely RIGHTEOUS...in spite of our sins.

Imputed rightiousness (the rightiousness of Christ, given to us) is why we are eternally secure....even though we still sin.

 

Only if one accepts the tenets of open theology, of which I do not.

1 John 5:13 (ESV) I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

The way this is commonly expressed is "already, but not yet..."

I am rather concerned that so many people consider human free will THE trumping issue in all things theological. Is our free will not the rebellion of Genesis 3? What is it that stands above God as sovereign? The will of man? Then is that God? For what stands above God is obviously more than the God of the Bible.

Genesis 3:4-5 (ESV) But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

I do find this in Scripture:

Romans 1:1 (KJV) Paul, a servant [doulos= bond servant/slave] of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God...

2 Peter 1:1 (KJV) Simon Peter, a servant [doulos] and an apostle of Jesus Christ...

James 1:1 (KJV) James, a servant [doulos] of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ...

1 Corinthians 7:22 (KJV) For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant [doulos], is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant [doulos].

Romans 6:18 (KJV) Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants [doulow] of righteousness.

Ephesians 6:6 (KJV) Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants [doulos] of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart...

It seems fairly clear that we are "bond-servants" otherwise called "slaves" to Christ, as attested to in the Word by multiple writers, carried there by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

 

Just call me the spelling cop! :tongue3:


....who probably misspells more words than you do. :tonofbricks:

 

I wanted to return to this. At first, I was wondering if this was some sort of test for the newbie poster, but I decided overnight that you were serious.

Here's why your argument does not make:

1. Angels are not humans -- 1Cor 6:3 (ESV) Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life!

2. Angels are not (and cannot be) "saved" -- Heb 2:16 (ESV) For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham.
Jude 1:6 (ESV) And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day...

3. Angels "wish" for (and are pleased by) human salvation -- 1 Pet 1:12 (ESV) It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look. Luke 15:10 (ESV) "Just so, I tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents."

Using a special class of created beings as an illustration of human free will or the lack thereof could probably be called bad theology.

 

In fairness he didn't say anyone who would sin, he said anyone who would live in sin. Meaning, a person who would be happy and carefree, as you put it, living in sin. I believe the two of you are in essential agreement here.