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What is a Healthy Church?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by evangelist6589, Feb 25, 2014.

  1. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589 Well-Known Member
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    Read this book by Mark Dever recently. I agree with most of it, however by his admission only Reformed/Calvinist churches are healthy.

    http://www.9marks.org/what-are-the-9marks/

    Lots of churches do not fit his bill some of which include Pastor Erwin Lutzer, David Jeremiah, and Charles Stanley. None of the pastors above are Reformed, however Lutzer probably best understands the DOG, but still he is not listed as a healthy pastor on Dever's website. So what is a healthy churches and are only Calvinist churches healthy? In my opinion Reformed Theology is the best and most Biblical but I also agree that many Arminian will be in Heaven and they are in general our brothers. So what say you?
     
  2. SolaSaint

    SolaSaint Well-Known Member

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    I think if you asked 100 Pastors that question you would never get the same answer. Could you imagine what Rick Warren would say? The more the better and everyone finding their purpose. Kenneth Copeland might say, everyone speaking in tongues and getting wealthy. MacArthur might say, if everyone surrendered to the Lord.

    Was the church in Acts a healthy church? What about the seven churches in Asia Minor? I like what Dever has to say, but it isn't to say he is right or wrong.
     
  3. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    Then I would like to invite him to our church. He'll hear the gospel, see a congregation that loves one another, and for the most part and healthy congregation that knows how to reach the world for Christ. His statement is arrogant, particularly in light of ...
    This goes hand in hand with the Rev's thread on defending systems over defending the gospel. Despite the beliefs of many well-meaning adherents of that certain doctrine that is so often the cause of strife on this forum, the gospel is not a system or a doctrine, but the very word of God, and not system or doctrine can hope to contain the nuances and depths of the gospel. Dever, if your comments about it are accurate, would appear to be contributing to the furtherance of that error.
     
    #3 thisnumbersdisconnected, Feb 26, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 26, 2014
  4. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    Is this something he says outright?
    If so could you provide a quote.

    Is there actually a list of healthy pastors on Dever's website?
     
  5. Greektim

    Greektim Well-Known Member

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    I'd like to hear a quote as well. That is a bold accusation.

    Knowing the 9 marks of a healthy church, my guess is that he is saying in the context of solid "biblical theology" (not in the discipline sense but a theology that coheres w/ the Bible) is one of the marks of a healthy church. He would then put aspects of reformed theology in that area of solid theology thus making it one of the marks of a healthy church.

    However, my guess is that he would not say that non-reformed are unhealthy. Maybe not as solid as they could be, but not unhealthy.

    So again... please provide a quote. Otherwise, this is some kind of slander/libel (get 'em mixed up). If not, then very harsh accusations along with really poor reading and observation skills on the OPer.
     
  6. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Good work Evan ..... your going to start a fight. I can almost foresee it now.

    Personally, I like Mark Dever. He has a systematic approach to organization & I like that. But somebody needs to tell him that he looks like Fred Flintstone with that 5 o'clock. Either he needs to grow it out in a beard (might look scholarly) or he might want to invest in a cordless Norelco & shave before he gets videotaped. :smilewinkgrin:
     
  7. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589 Well-Known Member
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    Well only Calvinist churches are mentioned on the 9 Marks website and if you do a church search it will show you only those churches.
     
  8. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589 Well-Known Member
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    Okay my error to get more technical he does not state they are not healthy, he just does not endorse them nor list them as a healthy church.

    http://www.9marks.org/churchsearch/searchmap.php

    I did a search in many areas and only found Reformed churches listed. While you disagree others will interpret that as not being healthy and believe me I have spoken to others whom also see this. I best and love Reformed theology.


     
  9. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    "Physician, heal thyself." So glad Christ would never say that to His church.

    Who has made the dumb or the deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? If you find a "healthy" church, don't join it. You'll just handicap it with your own weaknesses.
     
  10. Greektim

    Greektim Well-Known Member

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    I think it is a two way street on that church registry. Churches that want to be on there agree w/ Dever. Thus they are reformed. I wonder though if it is a requirement or just a natural result.
     
  11. Greektim

    Greektim Well-Known Member

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    That is hilarious.
     
  12. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    Huh? Mark/9Marks don't necessarily endose churches on the list, and basically any individual can just fill out the form and get their church listed. (a church I belonged to was once listed there unbeknownst to the congregation)


    http://www.9marks.org/churchsearch/
     
    #12 Jerome, Feb 27, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 27, 2014
  13. Greektim

    Greektim Well-Known Member

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    This completely throws out the OP then.
     
  14. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589 Well-Known Member
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    Which really confuses me. Why would someone write about the 9 Marks of a healthy church and then link to 9 marks churches and then say he does not endorse them. Very confusing... Okay maybe LakeWood Church will end up on that list one day and they will say they do not endorse them. Confusing...

     
  15. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589 Well-Known Member
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    Maybe LakeWood Church should also fill out the form and appear on the list and they will say they do not endorse them.

    I am confused with this system...
     
  16. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    It says there is minimal screening done.

    If you recall I pointed out a Wesleyan church in Colorado on the 9Marks directory.
     
  17. Greektim

    Greektim Well-Known Member

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    9Marks does not have the man power to screen every church submission. However, I've used it before to get an idea or the lay of the land (local church options). Then I went to the church's website to do a further investigation. By and large, it is like-minded churches on there.

    Honestly, I prefer the Gospel Coalitions list more. Bit more evangelical, less baptistic.
     
  18. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589 Well-Known Member
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    That I forgot about.
     
  19. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    Same thing on 'The Gospel Coalition' directory:

    There's quite a range, everything from Episcopal to Assemblies of God, even United Methodist.

    http://thegospelcoalition.org/network/church-directory/state/arkansas/harmony_assembly_of_god

     
  20. Greektim

    Greektim Well-Known Member

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