What is considered 'good' and what does God make 'good?'

webdog · Feb 10, 2012

Christos doulos said: ↑

No argument from me my friend

My friend. I believe John was addressing a Christian who is part of the body of Christ.

Let's see what I said,

My friend. I don't see anywhere in my statement where I said, your argument was untrue
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Please go back to post 34, #3. I never said anything about "untrue", I challenged you regarding the argument being STRONG.

DHK · Feb 10, 2012

preacher4truth said: ↑

Correct. Two sinners engaged in a natural act.

Now, off of your rabbit trail, did He say they were good, or was it their gifts that He said were good?
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No rabbit trail here. Read the OP, and consider again. Here is the OP:

I often here Reformed folks argue that man cannot do anything 'good' as proof for their doctrine of total depravity.
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The OP is not addressing the nature of man, but rather the activity of man.
Is the mother who is nursing her infant doing good.
The act is good. Point is made.

Nothing in the OP is addressing the righteousness of man. That is your rabbit trail to follow.

Iconoclast · Feb 10, 2012

webdog said: ↑

Curious, if you knew that was an incorrect answer to the question posed, why did you give it? MB asked for gentiles who are being referred to as the "elect". The answer is there are none (and tell Aaron Ruth and Abraham are not gentiles).
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here is a helpful article
http://www.reformedreader.org/rbb/keach/electionofparticularpersons.htm

preacher4truth · Feb 11, 2012

webdog said: ↑

Curious, if you knew that was an incorrect answer to the question posed, why did you give it? MB asked for gentiles who are being referred to as the "elect". The answer is there are none (and tell Aaron Ruth and Abraham are not gentiles).
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Your answer is incorrect, and you ignore Scripture.

...1 Thessalonians 1:4; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, and those at Corinth; 1 Corinthians 1:27, 28, and to the Colossians; Colossians 3:12, and also in Titus 1:1, and also referenced here, Paul being the Apostle to the Gentiles, that they, the Gentiles again are elect; 2 Timothy 2:8-10, and he also in reference to those at Ephesus calls them elect; Ephesians 1:4...each of these being Gentiles.

Curious if you realize your answer is incorrect, and proven incorrect, or if you're still in denial concerning revealed truth? There's no denying the Gentiles above were called elect. :wavey:

preacher4truth · Feb 11, 2012

Iconoclast said: ↑

here is a helpful article
http://www.reformedreader.org/rbb/keach/electionofparticularpersons.htm
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It's amazing you can show them Scriptures, and they still deny what is clearly taught. Actually, it's not as amazing as it used to be. Thanks for the link.

kyredneck · Feb 11, 2012

MB said: ↑

I wonder could you show me even one gentile who was elect in the Bible?
MB
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kyredneck said: ↑

Sure:

3 Glorious things are spoken of thee, O city of God. Selah
4 I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon as among them that know me: Behold, Philistia, and Tyre, with Ethiopia: This one was born there.
5 Yea, of Zion it shall be said, This one and that one was born in her; And the Most High himself will establish her.
6 Jehovah will count, when he writeth up the peoples, This one was born there. Selah Ps 87

1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith Jehovah.
2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thy habitations; spare not: lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes.
3 For thou shalt spread aboard on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall possess the nations, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited. Isa 54

26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; Break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. Gal 4

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd. Jn 10:16

13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them);
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh:
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Ro 2

9 And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,
10 and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon earth. Rev 5
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26 even the mystery which hath been hid for ages and generations: but now hath it been manifested to his saints,
27 to whom God was pleased to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Col 1

Skandelon · Feb 11, 2012

Again, I believe you are all making the error of over individualizing concepts not meant to be understood in that way. Here are the facts:

1. Israel was the ELECT nation of God.

2. Israelites were often referred to as 'elect' or 'chosen ones' due to the first fact.

3. We know that those called 'elect' were not necessarily believers because Paul explains to us that 'not all Israel is Israel.' (i.e. not all the 'elect' are really 'elect.'... not all of Israel has followed Abraham in faith)

4. We know the Gentiles are being grafted in and included through faith, while the Jews are being 'cut off.' (Gentiles are obtaining righteousness through faith, while the Jews have pursued it by works)

So, what we see happening in the NT is a paradigm shift where people are being challenged to consider that not only Israel has been chosen by God, but that the Gentiles likewise have been included; BUT NOW is not inclusion through being a 'seed of Abraham' (as they wrongly assumed), but inclusion for WHOSOEVER BELIEVES, whether a seed of Abraham or not. This has been God's predetermined plan all along. He has predestined to adopt and conform WHOSOEVER BELIEVES in him, even if they are a Gentile. THAT is the CLEAR intent of the authors and it has NOTHING to do with God preselecting to effectually save a particular number of individuals to the neglect of most of humanity. That flies in the face of the overall theme and tone of the Good News which we've been sent to proclaim to the far reaches of our hopeless world!!!

DaChaser1 · Feb 13, 2012

Skandelon said: ↑

I often here Reformed folks argue that man cannot do anything 'good' as proof for their doctrine of total depravity.

They argue that a response of faith in Christ is 'good' thus it would be impossible for man to do it 'on their own.'

There are two problems with this argument:

1. Since God sent the Holy Spirit to convict the world of sin and guide us into all truth, along with the Son, the apostles, the scriptures and the church to carry the gospel it cannot be said that we are ever 'on our own.'

2. Humbling one's self to admit that you are a sinner and need help, would not be considered 'good' by the world's standard. God takes man's humble surrender and credits it as 'good' based on the righteousness of Christ, not the individual responding. "Humble yourself and you will be exalted," scripture teaches. It doesn't teach, as some seem to impose, "God will humble you so as to exalt you."

God takes our filthy rags and credits them to our account as 'righteousness.' And the filthy rags of humble surrender are not made 'on our own,' but in response to the Spirit's powerful appeal for reconciliation and repentance.

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You have the wrong definition for how cals define Depravity though!

We agree man can still do good works, be kind hearted etc...

its just in the area of amking a decision to come to Christ and become saved, our sinful natures drive us always away, as we prefer darkness to light!

man will always have religion, but make up own gods and religious systems as oppossed to being able to understand and know true God...
that is biblical depravity!
per Apostles Paul and John!

What is considered 'good' and what does God make 'good?'

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