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What is 'kai'?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Frogman, Oct 4, 2003.

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  1. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Brethren,
    I did not know where to put this post so I put it here, if it is the wrong place, move it but leave a tag to it please.

    I am involved on another forum in a discussion of Heb. 12.23.

    Many of you know what I believe about the church. Nevertheless you are welcome to expound on Heb. 12.23 if you like.

    I need to know what the greek work 'kai' is. I know what Strong's says it is so please someone tell me...ok [​IMG]

    Bro. Dallas
     
    #1 Frogman, Oct 4, 2003
  2. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
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    It is the Greek word for the common English conjunction "and".
     
    #2 Baptist Believer, Oct 4, 2003
  3. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Thanks BaptistBeliever, I thought I might be the only one who saw that. :D

    As a conjunction is it connecting two phrases?

    Bro. Dallas [​IMG]
     
    #3 Frogman, Oct 4, 2003
  4. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Yes and no. It IS "and", but can often be "also" or "but" or "yet". Very versatile word that will depend on context.

    What's the issue in that verse?
     
    #4 Dr. Bob, Oct 4, 2003
  5. Mike McK

    Mike McK New Member

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    You mean like "pero" in Spanish?
     
    #5 Mike McK, Oct 4, 2003
  6. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Thanks Dr. Bob,

    The issue is the 'universal church'. At least that is the discussion I am in. A brother on another forum believes this passage teaches the universal church, I respectfully disagree. I have admitted to him and do now to all of you that I am not a greek scholar. But I understand Heb. 12.23 to be speaking of all the saved gathered in heaven, but not to the point that I would call all the saved the church. That is my issue...and perhaps only mine :D .

    Is 'kai' used as a conjunction here? Strong's says it is a primary particle and I have read that a particle is not an important word. What makes it a particle here and not a conjunction?

    Didn't know you were going to have to teach an English and Greek grammar lesson in Saturday School did ya? [​IMG]

    I am trying to understand why I have read this scripture the way I have and many others have not.

    Everyone I read on this last night, Vines, Robertson's, Gill, and any other I could find describe the general assembly as 'myriads of angels' why? Is this a complement to vs. 22?

    Ok, just as the teacher has to learn wait time, so must the student learn to practice it.

    God Bless
    Bro. Dallas [​IMG] see I did raise my hand before talking ;)
     
    #6 Frogman, Oct 4, 2003
  7. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Heb 12:18-21 talk about the old way (Mount Sinai) then contrasts it to the new. Here is MY translation of what ensues:

    Hope this helps. It is a typical rhetorical device of Jews (in Hebrew the wau consecutive would be used to tie it all together - in Greek it is "kai"). Each statement has a clarifying or descriptive subordinate clause.
     
    #7 Dr. Bob, Oct 4, 2003
  8. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Ah, the Greek "kai" is used
    then like the Microsoft Word "bullets"
    are used now.

    [​IMG]
     
    #8 Ed Edwards, Oct 4, 2003
  9. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Thanks Bro. Bob, and Brother Ed.

    Now, what is the function of the comma at the end of vs 22?

    Bro. Dallas

    Notice vs. 22: I have emphasized the commas.

    The heavenly Jerusalem is no doubt the city of the living God.

    Then there is a comma , just like that and just before and . According to Simeon & Schuster's Handbook for Writers the comma is placed correctly just before the conjunction and which means to the general assembly and the church of the firstborn, should be part of the clause beginning with 'and to an innumerable company of angels, .

    This would mean the and found after general assembly should be a definite article. This is because the definite article would clarify the general assembly and the church of the firstborn ones [assuming these are one and the same]. Which is the argument I am in disagreement with and why I started this post here to help me understand the function of the grammer in the verse. So my question: does the original text use a definite article or a conjunction?

    The word is 'kai' and this word is a conjunction and a conjunction combines two independent clauses. Otherwise the comma is separating items in a series as found in vs. 22 and in my thinking [though I may be in error] this means an innumberable company of angels and to the general assembly are two distinct items found in a series.

    Just some of my thoughts. I realize neither Paul nor the KJ translators had the Simon & Schuster. :D

    God Bless
    Bro. Dallas [​IMG]
     
    #9 Frogman, Oct 4, 2003
  10. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    You're confusing an ENGLISH TRANSLATION (and the arbitrary placement of punctuation) with the Greek. The AV really screws up the meaning here -- and I'm using the 1555 St Stephens text, one of the five or six used in translating the AV -- and it shows how the AV's version becomes misleading (and confusing).

    Remember always the theological bias of the AV priests. They NEEDED a "universal" church, not local assembly - hence their erroneous and deceptive choices when translating.

    Advise you to look at the Greek. You'll see semi-colons dividing the thoughts and commas just modifying each of the main thoughts.
     
    #10 Dr. Bob, Oct 4, 2003
  11. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Thanks again Bro. Bob. I do appreciate the advice. Can you point me to a good online source? I understand the translators' need as you explain it, but how do you know the punctuation is arbitrary?

    May God Bless you.

    Bro. Dallas
     
    #11 Frogman, Oct 4, 2003
  12. Paul of Eugene

    Paul of Eugene New Member

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    Don't forget, Doc Bob, that even the commas and semicolons are the addition of thoughtful editors.
     
    #12 Paul of Eugene, Oct 6, 2003
  13. Bible-boy

    Bible-boy Active Member

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    He knows they are arbitrary because the Greek source texts do not have such punctuation. If you look at the source documents that our translations come from you will notice that there are no spaces between words, punctuation marks, verse numbers, or chapter divisions (all were added for modern readers of translations).

    Yours in Christ,

    BibleboyII
     
    #13 Bible-boy, Oct 7, 2003
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