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What is music?

Discussion in 'Music Ministry' started by Aaron, Aug 14, 2005.

  1. Travelsong

    Travelsong Guest

    I don't think we are the ones to judge someone's heart as to how they worship. Rap and punk rock are sounds, style of music, and can be used just as much as soft, classical or the country sounding hymns we sing. </font>[/QUOTE]I'm speaking more in terms of corporate church worship. I don't think drums and blaring guitars or any kind of riotous sound has any place in the church. Of course I do on occassion enjoy me some Keith Green and I think even his more aggressive rock tunes are appropriate vehicles for the message he intends to communicate. I've even heard some Christian rap from a group called Cross Movement which was quite excellent lyrically, and the beats are well matched to the delivery.
     
  2. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    There is not one hint of marriage here. That is simply one application of the interpretation that he is addressing to the whole church. What fellowship do the righteous have with the unrighteous does not just apply to married couples, and you cannot get that out of this passage. It is speaking of all associations that we make with unbelievers. That is why there is such an emphasis on the yoke, using a wide variety of illustrations to illustrate the point of being unequally yoked. Look at the illustrations about being unequally yoked. They are not necessarily directed to marriage, in fact none of them are a direct reference to marriage. They are all a reference to a general association with unbelievers. Who do you associate yourself with? Who do you make an alliances with. I have a friend who went into business with an ungodly unsaved man. It didn't take long for him to realize that this man expected him to "cook" the books, be dishonest in the day to day operations, and was unethical in many of his practices. It was wrong for him to be in business with an unbeliever, and he quickly found that out--the hard way. He will never do it again. I have seen many unsaved friends pull teenagers down into the gutter of immorality and ungodliness such that their parents now mourn. It is sad that people make the wrong alliances and go contrary to the plain teaching of the Bible.
    DHK
    </font>[/QUOTE]When you become married you become "one flesh". The husband is supposed to be the spiritual leader, and the wife submissive to her husband. Either a saved husband, and unsaved wife or saved wife and unsaved husband are supposed to have a spiritual role. This is not the case with business partners, friends, and relatives unless you line up and become "yoked" to their belief system.
     
  3. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    That is only an opinion. Can you support it with Scripture? </font>[/QUOTE]You initially implied it is, the burden of proof is on you. </font>[/QUOTE]The lifestyles are worldly, sinflul, and ungodly (i.e., homosexual, and drug addict)

    2 Corinthians 6:14-17 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

    James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

    1 John 2:15-16 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

    Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

    Romans 1:18-27 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

    2 Timothy 3:1-4 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

    Enough?
     
  4. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    I don't think we are the ones to judge someone's heart as to how they worship. Rap and punk rock are sounds, style of music, and can be used just as much as soft, classical or the country sounding hymns we sing. </font>[/QUOTE]I'm speaking more in terms of corporate church worship. I don't think drums and blaring guitars or any kind of riotous sound has any place in the church. Of course I do on occassion enjoy me some Keith Green and I think even his more aggressive rock tunes are appropriate vehicles for the message he intends to communicate. I've even heard some Christian rap from a group called Cross Movement which was quite excellent lyrically, and the beats are well matched to the delivery. </font>[/QUOTE]Again, this is personal conviction. My view differs. This is what I call a "non essential".
     
  5. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Non Sequitor.
    Your are looking with rose colored glasses at a passage that has one general interpretation but many applications. You, with your narrow minded glasses, can only see the one applications. You need to open your eyes a bit wider.
    DHK
     
  6. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    That is only an opinion. Can you support it with Scripture? </font>[/QUOTE]You initially implied it is, the burden of proof is on you. </font>[/QUOTE]The lifestyles are worldly, sinflul, and ungodly (i.e., homosexual, and drug addict)

    2 Corinthians 6:14-17 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

    James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

    1 John 2:15-16 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

    Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

    Romans 1:18-27 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

    2 Timothy 3:1-4 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

    Enough?
    </font>[/QUOTE]And yet I find nothing pertaining to style of music, who sings the music.

    This verse you posted has nothing to do with physical friendhips, business relationships, or family relationships. It has everything to do with righteousness associating with unrighteousness, serving God as opposed to serving idols, and light as opposed to dark. These are spiritual, not physical
    ... Corinthians 6:14-17 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
     
  7. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Non Sequitor.
    Your are looking with rose colored glasses at a passage that has one general interpretation but many applications. You, with your narrow minded glasses, can only see the one applications. You need to open your eyes a bit wider.
    DHK
    </font>[/QUOTE]Or narrow yours and lose the judgemental attitude.
     
  8. Travelsong

    Travelsong Guest

    Yet do you not find that the contemporary worship service with all it's emotionalism and vacuous choruses is a complete waste of time?

    I've been to plenty of these these services and I've not found one instance of a more modern approach to be thought provoking or have any substance. In fact the whole point seems to be a focus on emotionalism. "One more time with feeling"!
     
  9. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    All music is amoral. The question is not "What formula must I follow to create righteous sounds?" but "What style of music is appropriate and conducive to what I intend to communicate?"

    Rap and punk rock are not acceptable forms of worship because their character does not lend itself to God honoring worship and contemplation.That being said I don't discount the use of rap or punk to communicate other sentiments in an appropriate manner.
    </font>[/QUOTE]If:
    1. All music is amoral, and,
    2. Rap and punk are not acceptable forms or worship because of their character, then:

    Their must be something about the character of some types of music that are dishonoring to God, and therefore immoral.
    DHK
     
  10. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Yet do you not find that the contemporary worship service with all it's emotionalism and vacuous choruses is a complete waste of time?

    I've been to plenty of these these services and I've not found one instance of a more modern approach to be thought provoking or have any substance. In fact the whole point seems to be a focus on emotionalism. "One more time with feeling"!
    </font>[/QUOTE]If it is emotional without worshipful, I have a problem with it. Emotional in itself is not wrong in worship. God created us emotional beings, in His image, who is shown to be an emotional God throughout the Bible.
     
  11. Travelsong

    Travelsong Guest

    I agree that this passage has many applications with respect to our relationships, but i definately don't understand how one can use it to suggest that listening to music yokes me with the performer. That just doesn't make any sense.
     
  12. Travelsong

    Travelsong Guest

    Incorrect. That's like saying that yelling is sinful because it's inappropriate for worship. Yelling has a place, it just isn't appropriate for worship.
     
  13. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Yelling is a good example.
    We don't yell at our children. If we do it is wrong. If it is wrong it is sin. Yelling is obviously a form of communication, but it is the wrong form of communication. I don't yell at God, and he doesn't yell at me. Why should one do the same in music?
    DHK
     
  14. Travelsong

    Travelsong Guest

    Ah but yelling when one is far away may be the only way to communicate. This further illustrates my point about communication being symbolic. It is not the actual "thing" being communicated.
     
  15. Travelsong

    Travelsong Guest

    If your child was in immediate danger you would yell to them so that they would understand a sense of urgency and that they may be in danger.

    A commander on a battlefield may have to yell at his men in the heat of battle to get them motivated.

    The list could go on and on.
     
  16. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    And once again, many of the preachers from the old-time Church also yelled and screamed at the congregations. This is often looked up to by those condemning everything modern. They did it all right back then, and we were wrong to "soften" up.
     
  17. Daniel

    Daniel New Member

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    Would you kindly explain what in heaven's name you mean by this, Aaron? (and, no, I won't violate the "DHK rule" and get all heated with you.)

    I just tripped all over that word perversion ! :confused:
     
  18. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Don't worry, I didn't mean sexual perversion. I meant a perversion of music. My impression of your definition, formed probably more from our discussions than the actual definition, was that it was pretty open/liberal.
     
  19. Travelsong

    Travelsong Guest

    Your sins shall forever condemn you to hell!!!Turn or burn!!!

    Let us bow our heads.
     
  20. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    I think those crazy antics are all out of wack myself. Ever see the documentary, "Marjo"? About a Pentecostal traveling evangelist, Marjo Gortner, who was a fraud? In one segment there is footage of him all over the stage with the microphone while his voice-over is saying that if he could have had his choice, he would have been a rock star. If one had imagined a rock band behind him during his antics, the parallel would be uncanny.
     
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