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What is New Testament Worship?

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Chick Daniels, Feb 21, 2002.

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  1. Chick Daniels

    Chick Daniels Member

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    I recently heard someone I respect declare that the New Testament church is never instructed to worship when assembled. The implication being that the recent push among many churches to return the focus of services to be more worship oriented is misguided. I will save my opinion on this until more responses come in.
    1) What is worship (individual and/or church worship)?
    2) Is the church expected to worship when it assembles together or simply eat donuts and gab about the lastest sporting event? (oops--I let my view slip through)

    Chick
     
    #1 Chick Daniels, Feb 21, 2002
  2. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple New Member

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    Hi Chick:

    This opinion seems to come from one of radical discontinuity between the Testaments. Both the NT and the OT instruct us in proper worship. I am currently taking a course at SEBTS called the Ministry of Worship. In it we use two books which are quite good: Enter Into His Courts With Praise!: Old Testament Worship for the New Testament Church, Andrew E. Hill, Baker Books, and Engaging with God: a Biblical Theology of Worship, David Peterson, Apollos Press.

    It is quite clear that God expects the church to worship him - whether assembled or not!

    [ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]
     
    #2 Chris Temple, Feb 21, 2002
  3. Chick Daniels

    Chick Daniels Member

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    Chris said
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>This opinion seems to come from one of radical discontinuity between the Testaments<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    This is exactly where I was going with this. I consider myself to be a dispensationalist, and yet the person who made the claim I described above demonstrates such forced hyper-dispensationalism that it pushes me further and further towards the middle. My dispensational position says that their is a distinction between Israel and the Church. This does not mean that they are completely different in every respect. Hyper-dispensationalism rigidly separates everything away from everything else. If one would go back and read Ryrie's Dispensationalism Today, one would find that he argued that to be a dispensationalist you need only to view that Israel and the Church are not identical (the church did not replace Israel). More recent hyper-dispensationalist claims have moved people like me into progressive dispensationism, even though I don't think that we have moved. It is dispensationalism that has moved into a more extreme position. They tend to view the OT as material that is "nice to know" and that if anything can be nailed down as truth, you must have NT support--some even argue for NT didactic (support from the epistles). Even the sermon on the mount gets tossed out.

    To answer my own question above, I believe that worship should be everything we do. Paul viewed himself as a drink offering--poured out in sacrifice and service. When believers are assembled together, individual worship is blended together into a corporate worship that is trans-dispensational. The people of God of any age will and should worship--as we will do throughout eternity.
     
    #3 Chick Daniels, Feb 21, 2002
  4. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple New Member

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    Chick:

    Very good. I agree with your assessment.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>This is exactly where I was going with this. I consider myself to be a dispensationalist, and yet the person who made the claim I described above demonstrates such forced hyper-dispensationalism that it pushes me further and further towards the middle.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Keep going Chick, keep going ... come to our side ... be one of us ... :D ;)
     
    #4 Chris Temple, Feb 21, 2002
  5. Chick Daniels

    Chick Daniels Member

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    Thanks for the invite Chris. The hyper-dispensationalists have probably already written me off--I am on a slipperly slope doomed to slide off into full blown amillennial Covenant Theology, but I will try to hang on at the Blaising/Bock level.

    Thanks again, Chick :D
     
    #5 Chick Daniels, Feb 21, 2002
  6. Jeff Weaver

    Jeff Weaver New Member

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    Dear Mr. Daniels

    Go ahead let go, come on in the water is warm. There is considerable comfort on the amillenial side of things. Chief of which is that you will be on the right side. :D

    Jeff Weaver
     
    #6 Jeff Weaver, Feb 21, 2002
  7. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Hang on, Man!! We're praying for you not to drift away into the cesspool of millennial malaise!!

    I am a reformed Baptist and still somewhat dispensational and totally pre-mill. You CAN worship God in the NT in a totally different way than the OT "routine" of sacrifice. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>(OT - Jer 33:11 KJV) The voice of joy, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the voice of them that shall say, Praise the LORD of hosts: for the LORD is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: and of them that shall bring the sacrifice of praise into the house of the LORD. For I will cause to return the captivity of the land, as at the first, saith the LORD.

    (NT - Heb 13:15 KJV) By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This is the basis of worship that comes from the heart of the regenerate, not the ritual or rites, sermons or songs that masquerade as "worship" in our churches today.
     
    #7 Dr. Bob, Feb 23, 2002
  8. javalady

    javalady New Member

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    Ok, I am a little confused here. Having been dispensationalists & Covenantal both at different times of our lives, PreacherDave & I are now New Covenant in our theology.
    We are partial-preterist/amil in our understanding of "the end". And, like Covenantal view, we believe God fulfilled His promises to Israel through Jesus Christ, and His main focus always has been & always will be the Church (i.e.: Not all Israel is true Israel, Rom. 9; all having faith are children of Abraham, Galatians; etc.)
    Having said all of that, we believe Sunday is the Lord's Day; but not in the sense of a Sabbath. It's the biblical ideal day of the church gathering together to worship & focus on Christ; but not to be equated with the OT version of Israel's Sabbath.
    Church-wise, we have singing to the Lord (mostly hymns, but also psalms & an occasional more modern spiritual song), lots of prayer, exegetical teaching/preaching, times of testimony & prayer requests...so HOW does that differ from what Dr. Bob is saying?
    We certainly aren't like the sloppy Charismatics (or their non-Charismatic look-alikes who copy what they do but don't speak in tongues) who "get lost in the Spirit so the Spirit said we don't need the Word today" types.
    Can I ask for clarification on the discussion and disagreement, please?
    I'ze abits confoozed! :eek:
     
    #8 javalady, Feb 23, 2002
  9. Molly

    Molly New Member

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    Can a woman post here? I really respect what the men have to say,esp those so versed in scripture. I remeber learning a while back that Romans 12:1-2 actually defines what worship is to each of us persoannly. I also believe we should worship corporatley as we assemble. This does not mean the singing time! :confused: I mean true worship happens in our heart when we hear Truth about God and worship Him because He alone is worthy of our heart's admiration and praise. It can happen during the music time(if the songs contain Truth),through scripture reading,offering time,and most certainly during the preaching of His Word. I worship more deeply when I realize how great He is compared to lowly me...a worm. But worship is a stae of mind. We have to fix our minds on Him. [​IMG] So many put so much emphsis on the "worship" time as being the singing time only. :rolleyes: So wrong!
     
    #9 Molly, Feb 26, 2002
  10. Molly

    Molly New Member

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    Sorry for all the misspelled words,I used to teach Elem school and I can spell,just got in a hurry! Please excuse me.
     
    #10 Molly, Feb 26, 2002
  11. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple New Member

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    This is true. But I think one of the reasons for the "masquerade of worship" is the church's loss of understanding of prescriptive worship, such as preparation, repentance, entrance, etc which was typifies in both tabernacle and temple worship. Our God is a God or orderly worship.
     
    #11 Chris Temple, Feb 26, 2002
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