What is Salvation by Faith?

Regarding my first post on this thread J. Jump wrote:

I was like "huh?" I believe that is the exact opposite of what I wrote and the teachings of the Scripture passages that I quoted and referred to.

I also specified that the faith that would motivate us to obey saves us before we get a single work completed.

In response to the above quoted post by J. Jump.

Thank you Heavenly Pilgrim. :thumbs:

 

God "DRAWS all mankind unto Himself" John 12:32

God was in Christ "Reconciling the WORLD to Himself" 2Cor 5

In response to that supernatural drawing - sinful depraved mankind is ENABLED to place FAITH in the Gospel, in Christ - to YIELD to the Holy Spirit, repent, confess and and be born-again.

That first STEP OF FAITH is then repeated in the one who "Walks in the Spirit" Romans 8 and "By the Spirit puts to death the deeds of the flesh" - the one who chooses daily - faith in Christ - who chooses to "Take up his cross DAILY and follow Christ".

But there is no "Salvation by faithlessness". When we choose to turn from faith - we do not then create a system of "Saved by faithlessness".

No such salvation exists!

Hence Matt 18 - "Forgiveness revoked"

Hence Romans 11 "Cast out of the vine of Christ" YET God is "ABLE to Graft them IN AGAIN IF they do not CONTINUE in UNBELIEF".

In Christ,

Bob

 

The above point is what the "wealth and prosperity" false-gospel teachers are covering up and replacing with "How can God make you as rich as me as I fleece the sheep"

INSTEAD of pointing them to the Phil 3 road of placing EVERYTHING in the past and striving "For that which God had in mind when He laid hold of me" - INSTEAD of "buffet my body and make it my slave LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I myself should be disqualified" 1Cor 9 end of chapter--- these guys only challenge the listener with "How can God make you rich like me".

 

HP that's the problem is people try to say all the right things, so that it appears that they have it right and they will deny they are preaching works based salvation. But you can convince yourself that what you are saying is correct, but that doesn't make it correct.

Darren used several passages that included works. If works come into the picture at all it's no longer by grace, but by works. The Bible never talks about a faith that motivates us to work as an eternal saving faith, because that's not what that faith is about.

Eternal saving faith is about believing what God has said about His Son, His death and His shed blood as the Sacrificial Lamb. The motivation to work for the Lord can only come after the point of salvation. And unfortunately some Christians are never motivated to do such works.

That's why Ephesians 2:10 tells us we "should" walk in the works that have been pre-ordained by God. If works were a guarantee then it would have told us that we "will" walk in these good works. It would have used an imperitive verb instead of a subjunctive verb.

There is simply no "real" Biblical support that every Christian is going to mature like they are supposed to or do the works that they are supposed to do or overcome as they are supposed to or be obedient as they are supposed to or die to self as they are supposed to.

There is no guarantee that I will do those things. It is my hope and prayer that God will continue to work on me, but we as individuals have to allow Him to work on us. We can grieve the work of the Holy Spirit and we can even quench the work of the Holy Spirit. Or we can die to self and walk in the Holy Spirit.

 

Agree to a limited point. However; as my illustration demonstrates, one does not always have that absolute knowledge as you suggest it does. There may be faulty connections between the switch and the socket or the bulb may be burned out. This in no way negates the illustration I was using. Your faith in electricity is not misplaced if there is a fault in the line. Likewise when you place your faith in Christ "the electricity" and its power is still there but something is wrong between the point of the switch and the filament of the bulbfor example you sin. "If I regard iniquity in my heart Thou will noot hear me". So it does not always end in absolute knowledge. And I would contend that even though using a physical reality to explain a spiritual reality is difficult it is not impossible, else Our Saviour would not have used them so extensively.:thumbs:

But I understand what your objections is, I just disagree with the finer points of it. We could pick any illustration apart on the details, but the nature of illustrations are not to explain every detail but rather to explain a spiritual truth. Hence; electricity in our day is a perfect example of faith placed in the unseen. The duration of time between "sight" and faith does not matter.

If one places his faith in electricity, the science books tell him he will receive power. He cannot SEE that power but he can RECEIVE its work in his life. He believes it and takes action. And lo and behold! the books were right! The same is true with faith in Christ and the Bible.
1Jo 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
1Jo 5:14
¶ And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
1Jo 5:15
And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

Do you want to be saved? We know God wants you to be saved, therefore asking to be saved BY FAITH in His blood according to His word we KNOW we HAVE what we ask for because He SAID we do. The period of time does not matter. By the way, according to this passage, our "absolute knowledge" (as you put it) is more instantaneous than electricity!!! PRAISE GOD!

No, I do not allow for the possibility of 'error in perception'. What I do allow for is insincerity or a desire to hold onto some sin and not fully trusting Christ alone. This and this alone would negate my illustration. For example; you go to the switch but don't fully flip it. That has happened to me in a hurry. The switch only goes halfway between on and off. This got no light. It shows us that halfheartedness does us no good at all. We must be fully placing our faith in Him.

 

In studying Scripture, I follow the Baptist principle "compare Scripture with Scripture." Scripture clearly indicates that we are saved by faith, but Scripture also describes that faith. I got saved on a Thursday morning in June of 1993 in a Baptist preacher's study office. When I learned the Gospel, I accepted it and wanted to do something to obey as quickly as possible. When I accepted the Gospel, I was saved, but I had not done anything because of it yet -- but I had every desire and intention to do so.

Romans 4:5 “And to the one| who does not work, but believes on him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness” (ESV|Campbell et al, Living Oracles, page 290).


Ephesians 2:8-10 “for by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For |in Christ Jesus, God made us new people| for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them” (ESV|ICB|ESV).

We are saved by faith and that alone. A single work does not need to be completed.

However, James 2:14 "What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him?" (ASV) James 2:19-20 sarcastically "Thou believest that God is one; thou doest well: the demons also believe, and shudder" (ASV) and 2:20 "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith apart from works is barren?" (ASV) and finally 2:26b "faith apart from works is dead."

Jesus expanded on this at Matthew 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven" (ASV). There are people who believe, even giving lip service to Jesus as Lord, but such faith does not motivate them to act on it -- Jesus said it will not be enough.

Paul, who was the human secretary-author of the great salvation by faith passages, explains what he means by faith: Galatians 5:6 “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, |but only | the kind of faith that works through love” (NASB|ESV|ICB).

Scripture says that we are saved by faith apart from works. Scripture defines that faith as one that works -- or would work if it is a case of extenuating circumstance where the new Christian's death is impending and a good deed from obedience is not even going to get started. If a person's "faith" does not motivate or would not motivate that person to do good works for our Lord, it is not biblical faith and the person is not a Christian; s/he would not be a Christian until s/he had biblical faith.

 

Darren again you are trying to combine two different messages. This is what a lot of Christendom has done today. And I agree that we have to compare Scripture with Scripture, but we have to be careful that we compare like Scripture with like Scripture and not mix messages.

James is not dealing with eternal salvation issues. James 1:21 tells us that he is dealing with the salvation of the soul. Eternal salvation and salvation of the soul are two differnt messages.

To talk about salvation by grace through faith apart from works in the same context as what James is speaking of is mixing messages. Works NEVER enter the picture of eternal salvation or it is not of works and makes some of the passages that you quote lies. And we know that is impossible.

Again Jesus never preached salvation by grace through faith. Jesus was preaching the kingdom. The kingdom message and eternal salvaiton by grace through faith are two seperate messages that must be kept seperate if we are to have a correct understanding of Scripture.

If you would like to dig deeper into this subject via Scripture PM and I can send you some great resource material.

 

Missed this part. There is no Scripture that supports this statement. Faith is not about working faith is about believing what God has said about a matter. And as far as eternal salvation is concerned God has said that His Son, the Lamb of God died and shed His blood in my place to pay my sin debt. And He has said if I believe that then I am saved.

My works, my lack of works, my desire to work, my lack of desire to work NEVER enter the picture. If you believe Christ died and shed His blood on your behalf you are a saved person. That's what Scripture says.

Your desire to work, or a non-desire to work come into play ONLY AFTER the moment of salvation. And one must be taught that works are to eminate out of their faith, but it's not an eternal saving faith anymore because the very moment that person believed on Christ they are saved and eternal salvation is a non-issue from that point forward.

 

Amen Jj! On both recent posts...

(I hate this ten character rule! What's the point of it? I know, I know...ask the admin...)

 

Works are works are works are works.

It doesn't matter if they're works to get saved, to stay saved, to prove you're saved, or whatever.

They're still works.

 

What is salvation by faith?


Never heard of it! Of "righteousness by faith", surely! "The righteousness namely, OF GOD" --- which is Jesus Christ FOR us and in our stead. In Him we have forgiveness of sin, and therefore, fully, salvation, and salvation eternal, eternally. The difference between Arminians and Calvinists again!

 

"You are saved by grace through faith - it is the gift of God". Salvation by faith is salvation by works - he who has it, has not Christ.

 

Babel! Just listen to yourself Bob! I'm afraid you're incurably blind and deaf!

 

That much is true. But what is your point?

Eph 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

GOD has ordained that we should walk (perform) good works. That is AFTER salvation. IOW Be holy, and live a holy (sperated) life. What do you folks do with THAT ?

Barnes:
Unto good works. With reference to a holy life; or, the design for which we have been created in Christ is, that we should lead a holy life. The primary object was not to bring us to heaven. It was that we should be holy. Paul held perhaps more firmly than any other man to the position, that men are saved by the mere grace of God, and by a Divine agency on the soul; but it is certain that no man ever held more firmly that men must lead holy lives, or they could have no evidence that they were the children of God.
Which God hath before ordained. Marg., prepared. The word here used means to prepare beforehand, then to predestinate, or appoint before. The proper meaning of this passage is, "to which (oiV) good works God has predestinated us, or appointed us beforehand, that we should walk in them." The word here used--proetoimazw--occurs in the New Testament nowhere else, except in Ro 9:23, where it is rendered, "had afore prepared." It involves the idea of a previous determination, or an arrangement beforehand for securing a certain result. The previous preparation here referred to was the Divine intention; and the meaning is, that God had predetermined that we should lead holy lives. It accords, therefore, with the declaration in Eph 1:4, that he had chosen his people before the foundation of the world, that they should be holy. Cmt. on Eph 1:4.
That we should walk in them. That we should live holy lives. The word walk is often used in the Scriptures to denote the course of life. Cmt. on Ro 6:4.

 

That much is true. But what is your point?

Eph 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

GOD has ordained that we should walk (perform) good works. That is AFTER salvation. IOW Be holy, and live a holy (sperated) life. What do you folks do with THAT ?

Barnes:
Unto good works. With reference to a holy life; or, the design for which we have been created in Christ is, that we should lead a holy life. The primary object was not to bring us to heaven. It was that we should be holy. Paul held perhaps more firmly than any other man to the position, that men are saved by the mere grace of God, and by a Divine agency on the soul; but it is certain that no man ever held more firmly that men must lead holy lives, or they could have no evidence that they were the children of God.
Which God hath before ordained. Marg., prepared. The word here used means to prepare beforehand, then to predestinate, or appoint before. The proper meaning of this passage is, "to which (oiV) good works God has predestinated us, or appointed us beforehand, that we should walk in them." The word here used--proetoimazw--occurs in the New Testament nowhere else, except in Ro 9:23, where it is rendered, "had afore prepared." It involves the idea of a previous determination, or an arrangement beforehand for securing a certain result. The previous preparation here referred to was the Divine intention; and the meaning is, that God had predetermined that we should lead holy lives. It accords, therefore, with the declaration in Eph 1:4, that he had chosen his people before the foundation of the world, that they should be holy. Cmt. on Eph 1:4.
That we should walk in them. That we should live holy lives. The word walk is often used in the Scriptures to denote the course of life. Cmt. on Ro 6:4.

 

You pretty much made my point in your next statement:

That after salvation, we should do good works.

Our good works have nothing to do with us getting, keeping, or even proving our salvation.

We are saved by grace through faith.

We are justified by our works.

 

Luke 1:6: (Talking about Zechariah and Elizabeth) And they were both righteous (just) before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Our justification has to do with our walk; it has to do with our lifestyle.

Galatians 2:16-17: Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

Justification is defined in Romans 8:33 which says, “Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth”. Justification means to stand unchargeable. Notice that it is God who justifieth. That’s a present, active, participle. What that means is that it’s an ongoing process. Present tense, you draw a line. It’s not an event; it’s an ongoing process. That ongoing process is sinning. When we sin, we are chargeable. When we confess that sin, what happens? We are not chargeable.

Did you know that there are some sins in our lives that we will not repent of and we will not confess? Do you know what that means? When you stand in his presence, you will be chargeable for that sin of lawlessness.

1 John 1:9 tells us, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness”. If we do not confess our sins, he is faithful and just to charge us with unconfessed sin, and we will have to deal with that at the Judgment Seat.

[Galatians 2:16a; knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law] The word “justified” is present, passive. In other words, it is the works of the law acting on us. It is a continuous process. This justification is on the basis faith, which is also a continuous process. You and I both can make shipwreck of the faith. We can depart from living by faith. If we depart from faith, the justification process comes to a screeching halt. Why? Because we are not pleasing God. That’s what justification is all about, hearing, “Well done thou good and faithful servant”.

Then, notice what Paul says, “Even we have believed in Jesus Christ”. This word “believed” is in the aorist tense. Paul says, “We have been saved”. “That we might be justified by faith.” The word “might” is included. The implication is that we might not. The implication is that we might make shipwreck of the faith. We might stop pleasing God, and then, we become chargeable. We might be justified by faith, pleasing God, by a lifestyle that does not fail.

“And not by works of the law, for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.” I included verse 17 because of the word “seek”. We are seeking to be justified. “Seek” is in the present tense. It’s something we need to be doing always. We need to be seeking to please God all the time.

We do that by being faithful to him. Hebrews 11:6 says, “But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him”. Faith is the essential ingredient for us to please God. Hebrews 11:1 says, “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen”. Faith (that which pleases God) gives substance to things that we hope for.

What is the hope of a Christian? Do you hope that you are saved? The hope of a Christian is to have a heavenly inheritance; it’s to have glory and honor in his coming Kingdom. What faith does is that it gives substance to that inheritance and to that glory, and because it gives substance to good things that are coming, because Jesus Christ is our high priest of good things to come, according to Hebrews 9:11, it will produce evidence in our lives. Faith will produce evidence. What kind of evidence? Obedience. A lifestyle of obedience is the evidence that it should produce of things not seen, yet hoped for. In order for us to have a heavenly inheritance, we need to live by faith, and that would be the evidenced in our lifestyle.

Galatians 3:8: And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Emphasizing that justification is a process: [would justify – is justifying; present, active, indicative]. God is in the process of justifying those of us who are willing to live by faith. This is a continuing process.

Acts 13:39: And by him all that believe [present, active] are justified [present, passive] from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

In other words, we do our part, and God does his part in forgiving, and cleansing, and restoring our fellowship with him. That’s the passive part of justification. Once again, being justified is not an event; it’s an ongoing process. Those who believe in the present tense (those who are faithful) are the ones who are being justified.

Galatians 3:11: But that no man is justified [present, passive] by the law [ceremonial law] in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just [saved, yet obedient] shall live by faith.

The just are saved and they are obedient. Obedient to what? They are obedient to the moral law. When God did away with the law, it was the ceremonial law that he did away with, not the moral law. It’s the just who live by faith. If you’re not obedient to the moral law, you can’t live by faith. If you’re living in sin, you can’t please God. Romans 14:23 tells us that whatsoever is not of faith is what? Sin.

Spiritual salvation is an event: Believe and you will be saved.

Justification is not an event; it's an ongoing process.

 

So , in your view , you think that some believers are more justified than other believers ?