What is Sin?

Just keep hanging in there! They are blind as a bat and willfully so. They don't care a thing about discovering the real truth but are simply here to defend their dogma regardless of how they must do it. So, don't expect any changes on their part regardless of the evidence you place before them. Only God can open their eyes to the truth as we just keep shoveling it to them.

 

Precisely my point...

There is "religion" that can be zealous and effectively mimic an authentic born-again from above experience with God and there is regeneration, where no mimicry is required because one is a new creation.

 

Such was the Religion of Saul the Pharisee - zealous for God and saw himself as "blameless" in regard to the law! A man who really believed he could be justified before God "according to" his own works on the day of judgment and thus inherit eternal life.

Many on this forum do not deal with scriptures that seem to contradict their views when placed before them. Instead they dismiss them, ignore them or deny them instead of dealing with the text in its context.

I must deal with scriptures placed before me that seem to deny my position because if my position will not stand up to any scripture it is either because my position is wrong or that scripture is not being contextually defined properly. Hence, I am driven from within to find out which case it is. There are some things I believe through such investigations that have confirmed over and over again those things as absolute truth. Hence, when someone throws a text in my face that I have not confronted before, I have no fear in digging into it because truth will always stand the test of scripture if you are properly exegeting that text in its immediate and overall context.

 

Yes, let us let the readers see what methods you must use in a failed attempt to match your teaching with the Scriptures in regard to what causes spiritual death. Here Paul says that "death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned":

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

Spiritual death comes as a result of a person's sin. But since that doesn't fit your mistaken view you simply add the following words in bold:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned IN ADAM" (Ro.5:12).

Of course anyone can make the Bible say anything using that method. I say that the verse can only be understood according to what Paul wrote and not according to your edited version. To further support my view according to Paul's version we can see that just two chapters later he makes it plain that "death" resulted from his sin against the law:

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me" (Ro.7:9-11).

Since Paul remained alive "physically" when he wrote those words he was speaking of a "spiritual" death. But since this does not fit your mistaken ideas you must somehow explain those words away. Here is your failed attempt to do that:

According to your idea Paul was "alive" unto God as he saw his religious life. It was this "knowledge" which died.

Even though Paul said that he died and the law slew him you say that he did NOT die at all but instead it was only his "knowledge" which died!

If there was ever a case of nightmare exegesis this is it!

The following passage also speaks of the same death that comes as a result of the law, and it is NOT speaking about anyone's knowledge dying:

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life...the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones" (2 Cor.3:6-8).

Paul describes the Ten Commandments as being "the ministration of death"--"written and engraved in stone."

And that is exactly what Paul is referring to here:

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me" (Ro.7:9-11).

Of course the contrast which Paul made at 2 Corinthians 3:6-8 is between that which brings "spiritual" life versus that which brings "spiritual" death:

"...for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life."

Instead of believing what is said in all of these verses which I quoted you are forced to twist their meaning to such an extent that your interpretation no longer resembles what Paul said. You put more faith in the following teaching invented by men than you do in the Scriptures themselves:

"They (Adam & Eve) being the root of mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed to all their posterity, descending from them by original generation" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/3).

 

Just read Ephesians 2 then get back to me (us).

 

1 Cor. 15:22 For as in Adam all die,"

What happened to "all" in Adam? "by the offence of one many BE DEAD" - "by one man's offence many were MADE SINNERS."

Paul does not say by the OFFENCES PLURAL of MANY PLURAL many "BE DEAD" or many were MADE SINNERS - but that is what your false doctrine requires Paul to say to fit your interpretation of Romans 5:12.

Your interpretation of Romans 5:12 requires it to mean "by one man LAW entered into the world" but it does not say or mean that as the following context shows.


You jerk Romans 5:14 out of context and make it fit your theory and then choose a translation to harmonize with your error. His argument is very simple and the over all context keeps on repeating the point of this argument - "BY ONE MAN'S OFFENCE" not by MANY MEN'S OFFENCE as you interpretation demands.

The only LAW revealed by God to man was Genesis 2:16 and only Adam violated that law and NTHER HUMAN BEING violated that law but Adam and it is through that ONE MAN and his ONE OFFENCE many "BE DEAD" many be "MADE SINNERS" and many were condemned and the proof is that NTHER LAW was revealed to men living between Adam and Moses and yet all living between Adam and Moses died and so death must be traced back to violation of that ONE REVEALED LAW by ONE MAN.

Secondly, since all die who are incapable of having sinned willfully and intentionally (infants and mentally handicapped) then the only cause of their death must be traced bact to ONE MAN'S OFFENCE of that ONE REALED LAW in Geneis 2:16.

Unfortunately for you my exegesis is the truth! You ignore context of this passage which follows Romans 7:1-6 where Paul establishes that Christians are "DEAD" to the law through the body of Christ and therefore Paul's aim is to prove that the law law cannot sanctify a person any more than it can justifiy a person but only reveal sin and condemn that person.

To prove this, he first must establish that the problem is not in the law but in the person attempting to obey the law. This problem exists in that person both before (Rom. 7:7-13) and after becoming a Christian (Rom. 7:14-25) and so the law can neither justify (Rom. 7:7-13) or sanctify (Rom. 7:14-25) a person but both are the acts of the Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:1-27). So you are ignorant of the context and pervert it.

In Romans 7:7-13 the law cannot justify, provide life, provide righteousness, provide holiness even though the law is just, rightoues and good (vv. 7,12). The problem is in man not in the law.

Paul is speaking from the time of birth to the time he was as a Religous lost Rabbi in Romans 7:8-11 as it was during that time frame he reveals how he viewed himself in relationship to the law. Philippians 3:4-6 demands this is how he viewed his relationship with the law between birth and salvation:

Philip. 3:4 ¶ Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

[birthright]
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin,

[life from birth to salvation]an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

He saw himself as ALIVE TO GOD through "righteousness is in the law, BLAMLESS" thus justified for eternal life under law.

In Romans 7:8-11 he describes how his view of the law IN REGARD TO HIMSELF changed. Romans 7:8-11 is the transformation that occurred somewhere on the Road to Damascus just before his conversion. This is what Jesus was referring to when he told Saul "It is hard for thee to kick against the pricks"

What he formerly thought was the source of LIFE became DEATH when he was brought to understand what the law really included - "the law is SPIRITUAL" and it was the tenth commandment that broke the barrier in his mind from purely an EXTERNAL application of law (from whence he perceived himself as "blameless") to an INTERNAL application of the law which brought condemnation and death to his understanding instead of blamelessness and life as previously perceived by him.

Now this is the truth and you will stand before God and answer for rejecting it and you will reject it unless God opens your eyes.

 

You repeatedly pervert all of the Scriptures that demonstrate that a person dies spiritually as a result of his own sin and not as a result of Adam's sin. Here is another passage that supports what I say:

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death" (Jas.1:13-15).

It was by breaking God's law that brought spiritual death to Adam and since there is no respect of persons with God that principle is in effect for all men.

"For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law" (Ro.2:11-12).

It is a person's own sin which brings spiritual death and condemnation:

"...the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds...unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil" (Ro.2:5-6,8-9).

 

Two facts that you choose to remain in ignorance about:

First, The death passed down to all men is SPIRITUAL DEATH by nature as he says "by one man's offence many BE dead"! Not "shall be dead" but rather that is the STATE by NATURE! Thus the nature of the fruit is indicative of the nature of the tree.

Second, Adam acted as a REPRESENTATIVE man in behal of all men in regard to the law defined in Genesis 2:16 and therefore by ONE MAN'S OFFENCE many were MADE SINNERS - again sin by one begets sinners.

 

Spiritual death comes as a result of a person's sin. But since that doesn't fit your mistaken view you simply add the following words in bold:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned IN ADAM" (Ro.5:12).

You change the plain meaning of what Paul said and then you base your ideas on something which Paul did not say and then you have the temerity to say that your invented idea is "fact"!

Of course your idea is stated here by the Calvinists:
　
"They (Adam & Eve) being the root of mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed to all their posterity, descending from them by original generation" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith, VI/3).

If that is right then there can be no doubt that Abel bore the iniquity of his father Adam. However, the Scriptures make it plain that the son shall not bear the iniquity of his father:

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son" (Ezek.18:20).

Of course I did not expect you to even attempt to address the following verse that demonstrates that one's spiritual death comes as a result of a person's own sin and not as a result of Adam's sin:

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death" (Jas.1:13-15).

It was by breaking God's law that brought spiritual death to Adam and since there is no respect of persons with God that principle is in effect for all men.

"For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law" (Ro.2:11-12).

It is a person's own sin which brings spiritual death and condemnation:

"...the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds...unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil" (Ro.2:5-6,8-9).

 

We are just repeating ourselves and going around and around and around.

Romans 5:15 and the words "be dead" represent the Aorist Active Indicative and prove ALL DIED spiritually when Adam died spiritually "BY ONE MAN'S OFFENCE"!

Impossible to make if physical death because Paul or any of his readers or present generation had NOT died when he wrote it, much less, future generations!

- You can ignore it, you can cry about it or you can complain about it - but that is proof your position is wrong!

 

I keep repeating these verses in the hope that you will finally address them.

I never said that it was about "physical death."

Yes, it was a result of Adam's sin that many died. If Adam would have remained in a state of innocence then "law" would not have come unto all, and where there is no law sin is not imputed. That is exactly how by one man's offense many are dead.

But what follows contradicts your idea:

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous" (Ro.5:19).

It was by Adam's sin that many were made "sinners." The Greek word translated "sinner" is an adjective and it is modifying the noun "many." So by the disobedience of Adam many were made sinners. This is not talking about Adam's sin at all. Even John Calvin affirms that truth:

"This is no tautology, but a necessary explanation of the former verse. For he shows that we are guilty through the offense of one man, in such a manner as not to be ourselves innocent. He had said before, that we are condemned; but that no one might claim for himself innocence, he also subjoined, that every one is condemned because he is a sinner" (John Calvin, Commentary on Romans 5:19).

According to you the death spoken of in the following verse has nothing at all to do with the sins which individuals commit:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

Spiritual death comes as a result of a person's sin. But since that doesn't fit your mistaken view you simply add the following words in bold:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned IN ADAM" (Ro.5:12).

Anyone can make the Scriptures say anything they want them to say by using your method!　

 

No sense arguing with one of the dead ones... :BangHead:

 

Probably not in view of your response to other scriptural issues...

 

What don't you get about the Aorist tense? This is a completed action. It does not say "by one man's offence many SHALL die"! But that is how you are interpreting it.

The Aorist demands the "many" are already DEAD not SHALL BE dead!!!!

When Adam died spiritually all mankind died spiritually at the point of his offence not their offences because the offences of "many" were all future when Adam committed his offence and died spiritually.

All men sinned when Adam sinned and all men died "BY ONE MAN'S OFFENCE."

Your interpretation would make Romans 5:15 read:

"by one man's offence many SHALL DIE when they committ offences"

or

"by many offences SHALL many die"


But the text demands the death of many occurred as a completed action "by one man's offence." When he died they died. When he was condemned they were condemned; when he sinned "many were made sinners." Aorist tense completed action at the point of "one man's offence."

 

The whole human nature consisted in Adam when Adam sinned. His body and his spirit were the whole of human nature. When he sinned all humanity sinned, when he died spiritually all humanity died spiritually, when he was condemned all humanity was condemned. That is what representation is all about.

The aorist tense demands that the "many" are already "dead" and that death occurred "by one man's offence."

Adam reproduced after his own kind - spiritually dead, condemned, sinners by nature!

Your position must deny the Aorist tense and make it a FUTURE tense and your position!

Your position is simply wrong!

Your logic necessitates the notion of double predestination. Who other than God can doom a spirit before it even has a body??? Did the spirits of all men reside in Adam? Is Adam the creator of mans spirit? I thought you said man cannot create anything, did you not? So who creates a fallen spirit from birth?[/QUOTE]

Did all of human nature reside in Adam? Obviously or else can he reproduce after his own kind!! Does human nature consist of a spirit and body? So what do you suppose was reproduced? From whence came it? The Bible teaches Adam reproduced after his kind and his kind were already spiritually "DEAD" (aorist tense) when he sinned. Therefore all humanity is concieved "in sin" and as soon as they go forth from the womb they manifest the nature of sin - YOU NEVER HAVE TO TRAIN A CHILD TO DO EVIL AS IT COMES NATURALLY!

Wake up and smell the roses!! The aorist tense repudiates your theory and interpretation in Romans 5:15.