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What is the Bible?

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Rev. Joshua, Aug 19, 2002.

  1. post-it

    post-it <img src=/post-it.jpg>

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    I can't speak for Joshua, but I would start out a sermon by saying something like...
    *********************************
    Today we will be studying "The 10 Suggestions"

    He suggest's we honor our parents unless they are homosexual, then we can tell them they will go to hell and we can't associate with them until they change. :D

    [ August 20, 2002, 06:50 PM: Message edited by: post-it ]
     
  2. Robert Nicholson

    Robert Nicholson New Member

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    Brother DHK

    I agree with your post 100%

    Why do I believe the Bible is the Word of God?

    The Lord Jesus in Luke 24:44 after his resurrection told his diciples:
    "...These are the words which I spoke unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets and in the psalms concerning me"

    We find that the Lord Jesus himself recongnize three catergories. I realize that he did not mention specific books. However, Historian Josephus A.D. 37 to A.D. 97 wrote in "Against Apion, I, 8

    "For we have not an innumerable multitude of books among us, disagreeing and contradicting one another as the Greeks have, But only twenty-two books, which contain the records of the past times; which are justly believed to be divine; and of them five belong to Moses, which contain his laws and the traditions of the origin of mankind till his death. The interval of time was a little short of three thousand years; but as to the time from the death of Moses till the reign of Artaxerxes king of Persia, who reigned after Xeres, the prophets, who were after Moses wrote down what was done in their times in thirteen books. The remaining four books contain hymns to God, and precepts for conduct for human life"

    I apologize for the length of the quote. However, the point I am trying to make is that although the Lord Jesus did not name the books included in the old testament, because I am sure his disciples knew what books he was talking about, we find that Joesephus refers to the Hebrew Cannon of 22 books which are identical in content to the 39 books in the so called Protestant Bible. The order and groupings are different. I could provide the comparative list if anyone would so desire.

    What about the New Testament? We agree it was written by eyewitnesses who walked with the Lord Jesus during his time on earth, were witnesses to his resurrection and his taking up into heaven. Some would make the argument that these writings were memories and as such could be somewhat in error of the facts.

    We know that the New Testament is the word of God by listening to the words of our Lord Jesus Christ! He knew that his disciples would not be able to remember everything and that some things were too hard to understand at the time.

    In John 14:26 the Lord Jesus gives his diciples a promise " But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom my Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your rememberance, whatsoever I have said unto you" In other words the disciples would be guided by the Holy Spirit in their writings.

    The Lord Jesus explains this further in John 16:12-13:

    I have yet many things to say unto you, but you cannot bear them now, Howbeit when he the Spirit of truth is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you"

    It is wonderful to see that not only will the Holy Spirit guide their memories, he will lead them into all truth and he will show them things to come.

    Why would we question the Word of God? Do we not think it possible that God could and will perserve his word forever?

    Truly we can say with the Psalmist "Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path." Psalm 119:105

    Peace in his name
    Robert
     
  3. Odemus

    Odemus New Member

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    Joshua, what must a man do in order to be saved? Is there only one path to heaven? What is sin and how can we know?
     
  4. Sherrie

    Sherrie New Member

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    I prayed and prayed all day about your words Joshua. It has me sick in my stomach all day. You have really been a bitter taste in my mouth. Something is terribly wrong. And I am still praying as I write this. Perhaps God will convict your hard heart. I truely believe you have slandered the Lord. But God showed me this and so I will share with you.

    And furthormore....

    This is in NKJV. if you want KJV, or NIV open your "camp fire books" (To the rest it will be in your bible) and turn to these scriptures:

    Luke 4:16-20

    16 So He came to Nazereth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the Synagogue on the Sabbath Day, and stood up to read.
    17 And He was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written:

    18"The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
    Because He has anointed Me to preach
    The gospel to the poor.
    He has sent me to heal the brokenhearted,
    To preach deliverance to the captives
    And recovery of sight to the blind,
    To set at liberty those who are
    oppressed,
    19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord."

    20 Then He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all who were in the synagogue were fixed on Him.

    Revelations 22:18-20

    18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
    19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
    20 He who testifies to these things says, "Surely I am coming quickly." Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!

    A sad day my friend. You are a man who made vows to God and profess to walk in the way of the Lord; and yet you do not believe Him when He gives you His word.

    I will not give you any more power over this. I have showed you proof that the bible is Gods word!

    REPENT!!!!
     
  5. Alex

    Alex New Member

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    Sherrie:

    I can't speak for Joshua, but I would start out a sermon by saying something like...
    *********************************
    Today we will be studying "The 10 Suggestions"

    He suggest's we honor our parents unless they are homosexual, then we can tell them they will go to hell and we can't associate with them until they change.

    How about this from post-it!!! I don't think repent is the choice for him, but, I'm not infallible. I did think his answer was very crude and since you prayed for Josh, I thought you could maybe help this lost person as I seem to bring out the evil in persons?? :mad:

    Don't take this as a joke....I could have responded to him, but for what good. Liberals are next to the Pope, meaning infallible!! ;)

    I really appreciate your sincerity with your post. Christ is very evident in you as with most Christian women. In following Christ, I have always felt that women do a far greater job than men.

    With liberals, scripture doesn't do much good in a debate unless it is some they believe are fact. But it should at least make them think things out again. post-it wasn't kidding about his homosexual remark.........they(most), say it is ok and is not a sin to be one. Very sad!! :(

    I hope multimom finds this thread as Helen did.

    God Bless...........Alex
     
  6. cojosh

    cojosh New Member

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    I'm with Sherrie. I've been sick since this topic began. There's so much proof in the scripture that's been given. How could we assume the scriptures aren't inerrant when God repeatedly puts so much emphasis on preserving His Word.
    It doesn't add up. The Son of God can be born of a virgin, perform miracles, be crucified, resurect from the grave, and redeem the sinner. But He can't use men to write a perfect book. WOW!!!! Let's not let the lost world know that our faith takes a backseat to insignificant human logic.
     
  7. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua <img src=/cjv.jpg>

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    Sherrie,

    I am deeply sorry that this thread has caused you so much distress, and doing so was certainly not my intent. My personal belief is that the gulf between fundamentalist Christians and liberal Christians is not so deep that we cannot bridge it as one Body of Christ.

    My hope with the original post was to help people get an answer to their "How can you liberals say you believe the Bible?" and "If you don't think the Bible is inerrant how can you take it seriously?" questions. Sadly, I don't think it accomplished even a part of that goal, and I imagine it would take the perspective of someone who came to seminary a fundamentalist and left a liberal to really express this stuff in a way fundamentalists can hear it. I knew several people in that category, and I'll try to get one or two of them to post if anyone thinks that would be helpful.

    I genuinely appreciate your prayers. I begin and end each day praying that I will more clearly know the will of God in my life and more accurately portray that will in my ministry.

    Joshua
     
  8. John3v36

    John3v36 New Member

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    Mr. Villines said:
    I think the heart of the gospel is in the teachings of Jesus:
    '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
    Mr. Villines you are a puzzling man. You say you don't believe in the virgin birth but, you believe the teaching of Christ . They Both come from the same book.
    How do you know you can trust one part of a book of the Bible and not another? What magic wand do you have to do this with?
     
  9. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    Joshua, I have a body of my own (obviously!). When my head tells my arm to move, it moves. It does not argue back about what 'move' might mean!

    God's Word is part of the operating instructions we have been given. By Him. Through men, true, but by Him.

    My arm gets its operating instructions through my nerves which certainly are not intelligent on their own! They obey the head. The Bible authors did the same so that we would have God's directions -- His Word -- in a clear and understandable way.

    God was faithful to do that. If you are truly a part of the body of Christ, I suggest you quit arguing with the Head about what His Word clearly means! What good would my arm be if it did not follow my head's directions? It could only do damage...or hang limp and no good.
     
  10. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua <img src=/cjv.jpg>

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    John, when have I said that I don't believe in the virgin birth.

    Helen, what I apparently haven't made clear is that I believe fundamentalists are the ones who misuse the Bible to support there own cultural norms and presuppositions. I think inerrancy is a betrayal of Jesus and Christianity, and that it fragments and undermines the Body of Christ.

    To accept inerrancy would be - from my perspective - to sell out Christianity to the Saducees. Well meaning, kind, good and likeable Saducees (many of whom I consider friends) but Saducees none the less.

    Joshua
     
  11. Bible-belted

    Bible-belted New Member

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    Ok, time for clarifications.

    Josh and Post, I hear you saying that you accept inspiration, but don't belive in divine authorship. That means that your idea of inspiration is different in terms of extensiveness and intensiveness than obviously most here are used to thinking. They may never have known that there even WAS any other option. Could you please both explain both the extent and intent of inspiration as you understand it?

    About Inerrancy. I find a certain strawman thing going on here. I hear denials of inerrancy, but no definition. And what might be a definition in one case acxtually denies something NO ONE affirms. So can we get an understanding of the variation of inerrancy (there are, by my count, 7 different definitions) you deny (or affirm as the case may be) and why? Thanks.

    One thing I will comment on though. There seems to be an assumption that the mere historical fact of the Bible having come to us through a historical process involving humans somehow denies a role for God in that process. That would seem to be an asumption that needs to be backed up. Myself I like the biblical perspective which sees God's working in and through historical events. I must say that ther seems to be an unstated naturalism behind your assessment.
     
  12. Alex

    Alex New Member

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    You changed directions quite a bit with this post. As you said, why should there be a GULF between us? My answer to this is actually another question. Why be a liberal Christian and become a moderate or even a conservative Christian? The definitation of a liberal Christian is, in general, everything you say or do is ok. The track record shows this. Clinton is a good example of a liberal Christian. By definitation, he didn't have sex! :D To any one less moderate, he is a lier! In my experience with liberal Christians, being a Homo is ok as he was created that way. Gays can be married(man to man), is that bibical? Liberal is to be LEFT and many may be actually LEFT out when Christ returns. You may be a good liberal but is that good enough for God?

    What would you call, bridging the gap. What do either side have to conceed to accomplish this? I think that no moderate or conservative will go to the left. Oh, some can be brainwashed, though, but not this Baptist!

    God Bless............Alex [​IMG]
     
  13. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua <img src=/cjv.jpg>

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    Alex,

    I'm not trying to change directions at all. The fact that I want to facilitate communication rather than impede it doesn't mean that I don't think I'm right.

    I likewise recognize that I might be wrong. It's one of the reasons I don't cease praying or studying.

    As for fundamentalists becoming liberals, it happens all the time. Most of the liberals I know (myself included) were once fundamentalists.

    Joshua
     
  14. Alex

    Alex New Member

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    It's loaded with icecream meaning very easy to follow your doctrine. That is why many go there......the easier to be a Christian, the better some like it, whether it is wrong or right. What I was implying, isn't it better to be safe than sorry? All religions sound good. Just read about the Mormons and the 7th Day adventists if you really want to see icecream!!!! To me, the harder it is to maintain a Christian like, the closer I am to what God wants. No one ever said it was easy to maintain a Christian life BUT it is simple to become a Christian, if you are sincere. I, like you, would like to see more harmony between different churches but that will only happen when Jesus returs the second time. ;)
    I will say that you seem very sincere, much more than post-it. That, in itself, has some merits but doesn't make me believe in the liberal way. I was very liberal in the past. I learned by my mistakes that to be liberal spells trouble.

    God Bless...............Alex
     
  15. post-it

    post-it <img src=/post-it.jpg>

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    Thank you Latreia for not getting sick like some others, reading some parts of the gospel would indicate they could be possessed by evil spirits. They may want to consult an exorcist. :eek:

    But to address your question from my own perspective. I don’t have a problem with 99% of scripture, I agree that most all is true or close enough, I think most Biblical scholars will have far more problems with scripture than I do.

    For example, I wouldn't have problems with Jesus walking on water since there is no other scripture to cast doubt on the event. Where I have problems is when scripture conflicts with each other. I draw different conclusions that what tradition teaches almost as a rule when conflicts start happening. I think that is because of so much Catholic influence through the years compounded by the need to control the masses.

    Example: To me Hell means a state of death under the ground. No fire, no torment. While tradition has opted for the population controlling factor of Hell since it is easier to convert the ignorant by threat of damnation than by what scripture teaches. Example: There are a couple of verses that would not support the peaceful hell position yet most scripture does support it.

    Common sense says that it is more likely that 30 references that say Hell is X and 2 references that say that hell is Y is an indication that hell is not both X and Y but rather just X. Especially when Hell can’t be both X and Y. Now the author who wrote that hell is Y and in opposition to all other authors is an indication that just that text is in error or that it is not being able to be understood at this time. If it isn’t being understood at this time, then it acts as error since wrong interpretation will be derived from it.

    For further example of how I view error: When it is written that the sun stood still instead of the earth stood still, I see that as an author's error, but I still believe that something somewhere stood still but it wasn’t the sun. I don’t think God would plant an error in the story if he word for word dictated the book. And yet he never said that all scripture was his words, but only inspired, thus the earth could have stopped, but the author was in error in the description of the facts. In the same fashion, the author could have just thought by other trickery that the sun stopped and recorded a false event. Or a myth was handed down and it was written at some point. Given those possibilities it does not lessen that the story, as written, was inspired by God which would mean that God can “stop the sun” even though he may not have. It attests to the a fact of the power and far reaching abilities of God. Then of course, there were other “lessons” that are taught by this story containing errors yet still revealing the truth within.

    I hope this sheds some light on what I see as error and how I don’t need a Bible without error to continue to believe what matters nor should you.

    [ August 21, 2002, 02:17 AM: Message edited by: post-it ]
     
  16. Bible-belted

    Bible-belted New Member

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    Josh and Post,

    I am goping to try and make this easy for everyone. I will gather up some simply worded and concisely stated understandings of inspiration and inerrancy, and I'll post them. I'll include as broad a spectrum of existing opinion as I can. What I'll ask you to do then is simply pick which theory of inspiration and inerrancy you think best fits your belief.

    How about that for facilitating discussion eh?

    This'll take a few hours to try and get the wording as accurate but as simple and untechnical as I can. So please bear with me. I'll try to have to done by mid-afternoon. Thanks for your patience.
     
  17. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    Post-it and Josh, awhile ago I posted a thread about Jesus and inerrancy. Not suprisingly, the libs stayed away. My "search function" isn't working. However, I will find it and post the link. I would like everyone to see how your beliefs square up with Christ's.
     
  18. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua <img src=/cjv.jpg>

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    That's an awfully broad generalization to make based on almost no information Alex. You have no idea what my doctrine is or what my understandings of Christian commitment are. If you want to know what kind of gospel I preach (and I assure you it is by no means an "ice cream" one) read my sermons and follow the 1500 or so posts I've made here (many of which have been in agreement with my fundamentalist colleagues).

    Joshua
     
  19. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua <img src=/cjv.jpg>

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    Latreia,

    Jim Dennison did a rather thorough piece on the eight different common definitions of inerrancy. It used to be online somewhere. I'll look to see if I can find it.

    Joshua
     
  20. Bible-belted

    Bible-belted New Member

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    Ok, Josh and Post, Here we go (main source for both of these lists is Millard Erickson's Systematic Theology):

    Theories of Inspiration (please indicate the one closest to your belief):

    1) Intuition Theory: This makes inspiration more or less the dsame thing as having gifted insight into God. Itis viewed as a natural ability. In this concept, Scripture writers were religious geniuses no different from Plato or Buddha.The Bible is simply great religious literature.

    2) Illumination Theory: There is an influence of the Spirit on the person, but one that merely heightens natural abilities and senstivities. The Spirit gives the writer a "higher religious consciousness". There is a greater ability to discover truth.

    3) Dynamic Theory: There is in this theory an emphasis on the interaction of the Divine and the human in the process of inspiration and writing scripture. The Spirit gives the writer the concepts and ideas, and the writer then writes them down using words and expressions that are natural to the personality and culture of the writer. In this theory the Bible is divinely revealed truths expressed in ways characteristic to the human authors.

    4) Verbal theory: Very like the Dynamic Theory, except that it holds that the direction of the spirit can move beyond ideas to the selction of words. That is, in certain specific istances where the choice of a particular word is critical to the intended meaning, the Spirit directs the writer to choose a particular word, regardless of whether it is one that the human writer would "naturally" choose or not. This is not the same thing as "dictation" though since this "overriding" of the human author is restricted only to certain points where word choice is critical to meaning.

    5) Dictation Theory: This goes way beyond Verbal theory to say that the Spirit dictated the Bible, word for word, tothe wirters. The writers were glorified typewriters. Authorial writing style, effectively, does not exist.

    So Josh and post, if you could please indicate which one fo these is closest to your belief that i think would facilitate discussion. Thanks.
     
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