What is the definition and scope of God's Sovereignty?

Hello AresMan.

Is that you saying you don't believe Acts 2:23 This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge;...
You said that God never causes sin does this mean you don't believe He puts lying spirits wherever He wants? Answer these points man. You said never.

Matt 23:37 is saying that God did not save the children because Jerusalem would not. It's the children that suffered for their fathers sins.

Yes it smacks of fagots and bonfires. If God is upset what's that to you? He is big enough to look after Himself.

I'll not let you off answers to the points I made please. Is God directly responsible for sin? Jerusalem is held responsible for their sin but it is God that directs everything that is why the question in Romans 9:19 needs an answer AresMan: "Why does God still blame us for who resists His will? And you Timtoolman.

1KI 22:23 "So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you." This will do for the Arminians.

Did you read about the bound nature we have? KJB set it out. Where did your sin nature come from Timtoolman? AresMan? For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. Romans 11:32 gives you an hint maybe. Directly responsible He is and then blames us man.

john.

 

Hello James.

Cool man. Bob's favourite I am.

There's plenty of time.

john.

 

Hello AresMan,

Calvin wrote that God did not make sin. Sin, or evil is a path away from God. To transgress Gods will is a sin. Satan was the same way. Satan's evil ways were not made by God. Evil was not there for Satan to pick. It was just that satan did not follow Gods will. Satan's path was away from God, making evil. It was and always will be a fight of the will. Gods will is the holy path. Mans will is sin.

This is the middle ground that most Calvinist hold to, and many Arminianist. This view came be traced back to Augustine. This also is in line with Christ teaching on sin. Sin is not just the sin act that we call murder, but it is hating and wanting to kill someone, playing over the murder in your mind, planing the real murder, and the act of murder. All of this is a path taking you away from Gods will and it starts with thoughts.

With the right view of sin, we see that God can never be part of sin. God is "set-apart"...or holy or WHOLE from fallen man that has a sin nature. Gods will is always kept by God for it is His will. The few times that God the father has come close to fallen man, we see His holy nature. Man wants to hide or wants the rocks to fall on them, for sins have no place with God.

This is the hurt of the cross. Christ a sinless man took on all sins. This hurt more then the nails and the cut in the side. God the father could not look at His Son, not because he could not stand the to see the pain of the death, but because of all the sin that was placed on Christ. God can have no part with sin, for His nature is holy.

But one thing that I have read by Johnp is this. If God tells you to sin...is it really a sin?

I ask you...Is it? No. we look at the act as sin. If we look at the path, it is not. For if it is Gods will, it is not a transgression. So...it is not sin. Will God ask us to do things that are viewed as sin? For the most part no. But He is God and can do as He wishes.

But how is it that God is in control and we still have sin? Many say that if God is not making sin as well as right, then God is not in full control. Having full power to do so, is not the same as using it. I think all would agree that God has all the power to make us sin if He wanted to do so. God can be in control in many ways. God was in control as he gave satan a time with Job. God was the one that asked satan to look at Job. God was the one that set the limits. Yet it was satan that worked within this limits. It was Satan at work, within the binds of Gods will. God can also work without using satan. God can and does use our own sin nature to bring glory to HIM. God can do this just by knowing us and what we will do and asking the right person at the right time, for He knows that right person will say no to His will and with this NO..Gods plan is made.

Well...this is undone, but I need to get to work.

The point i want to leave is...God can be in control of all things, and sin not come from Him....yet He knows sin will happen..so He uses it to his own glory.

What a GREAT GOD!!


In Christ...James

 

I do not have much time to post right now but I do want to make note that I do agree with much of JohnP and Jarthur001.

We have to remember that God does not have to make or force a person to sin. People sin willingly.

He has every right and all the power to restrain men from being as evil as they possible could be. There will be a day when He of His own will gives little or no restraint to men. It may be as hell.

Here is a good article; "Is God Less Glorious Because He Ordained that Evil Be?"
http://www.desiringgod.org/library/topics/suffering/god_and_evil.html

I will post portions of the London Baptist Confession of faith on the next post.

It gives places to find proof of God and His control and direction in all things.

God bless and regards, KJB

 

From the London Baptist Confession of faith (Similar as Westminster)

http://www.creeds.net/baptists/1689bc.html

Chapter 5: Of Divine Providence

1._____ God the good Creator of all things, in his infinite power and wisdom doth uphold, direct, dispose, and govern all creatures and things, from the greatest even to the least, by his most wise and holy providence, to the end for the which they were created, according unto his infallible foreknowledge, and the free and immutable counsel of his own will; to the praise of the glory of his wisdom, power, justice, infinite goodness, and mercy.
( Hebrews 1:3; Job 38:11; Isaiah 46:10, 11; Psalms 135:6; Matthew 10:29-31; Ephesians 1:11 )

2._____ Although in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first cause, all things come to pass immutably and infallibly; so that there is not anything befalls any by chance, or without his providence; yet by the same providence he ordereth them to fall out according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently.
( Acts 2:23; Proverbs 16:33; Genesis 8:22 )

3._____ God, in his ordinary providence maketh use of means, yet is free to work without, above, and against them at his pleasure.
( Acts 27:31, 44; Isaiah 55:10, 11; Hosea 1:7; Romans 4:19-21; Daniel 3:27 )

4._____ The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God, so far manifest themselves in his providence, that his determinate counsel extendeth itself even to the first fall, and all other sinful actions both of angels and men; and that not by a bare permission, which also he most wisely and powerfully boundeth, and otherwise ordereth and governeth, in a manifold dispensation to his most holy ends; yet so, as the sinfulness of their acts proceedeth only from the creatures, and not from God, who, being most holy and righteous, neither is nor can be the author or approver of sin.
( Romans 11:32-34; 2 Samuel 24:1, 1 Chronicles 21:1; 2 Kings 19:28; Psalms 76;10; Genesis 1:20; Isaiah 10:6, 7, 12; Psalms 1:21; 1 John 2:16 )

5._____ The most wise, righteous, and gracious God doth oftentimes leave for a season his own children to manifold temptations and the corruptions of their own hearts, to chastise them for their former sins, or to discover unto them the hidden strength of corruption and deceitfulness of their hearts, that they may be humbled; and to raise them to a more close and constant dependence for their support upon himself; and to make them more watchful against all future occasions of sin, and for other just and holy ends. So that whatsoever befalls any of his elect is by his appointment, for his glory, and their good.
( 2 Chronicles 32:25, 26, 31; 2 Corinthians 12:7-9; Romans 8:28 )

6._____ As for those wicked and ungodly men whom God, as the righteous judge, for former sin doth blind and harden; from them he not only withholdeth his grace, whereby they might have been enlightened in their understanding, and wrought upon their hearts; but sometimes also withdraweth the gifts which they had, and exposeth them to such objects as their corruption makes occasion of sin; and withal, gives them over to their own lusts, the temptations of the world, and the power of Satan, whereby it comes to pass that they harden themselves, under those means which God useth for the softening of others.
( Romans 1:24-26, 28; Romans 11:7, 8; Deuteronomy 29:4; Matthew 13:12; Deuteronomy 2:30; 2 Kings 8:12, 13; Psalms 81:11, 12; 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12; Exodus 8:15, 32; Isaiah 6:9, 10; 1 Peter 2:7, 8 )

7._____ As the providence of God doth in general reach to all creatures, so after a more special manner it taketh care of his church, and disposeth of all things to the good thereof.
( 1 Timothy 4:10; Amos 9:8, 9; Isaiah 43:3-5 )

Scripture reference points are given for those that would like to take time and search.

God bless KJB

 

And of the Heidelberg Catechism;

http://www.prca.org/hc_text1.html#LDX

X. LORD'S DAY.

Question 27. What dost thou mean by the providence of God?

Answer. The almighty and everywhere present power of God; [a] whereby, as it were by his hand, he upholds and governs heaven, earth, and all creatures; so that herbs and grass, rain [c] and drought, fruitful [d] and barren years, meat and drink, [e] health and sickness, [f] riches and poverty, yea, and all things [g] come, not by chance, but by his fatherly hand.

Question 28. What advantage is it to us to know that God has created, and by his providence doth still uphold all things?

Answer. That we may be patient in adversity [h]; thankful in prosperity; and that in all things, which may hereafter befall us, we place our firm [j] trust in our faithful God and Father, that nothing shall [k] separate us from his love; since all creatures are so in his hand, that without his will they [l] cannot so much as move.
[a]: Acts 17:25,26,27,28
: Heb. 1:3
[c]: Jer. 5:24
[d]: Acts 14:17
[e]: John 9:3
[f]: Prov. 22:2; Job 1:21
[g]: Mat. 10:29,30; Eph. 1:11
[h]: Rom. 5:3; Psa. 39:10
: Deut. 8:10; 1Thes. 5:18
[j]: Rom. 5:3,4,5,6
[k]: Rom. 8:38,39
[l]: Job 1:12; Job 2:6; Mat. 8:31; Isa. 10:15

I hope all those help. I may not be able to answer for a few days if anyone makes comments.

God bless you all, KJB

 

Using the calvinist argument, if man does ANYTHING "willingly" (including sin), God is not sovereign. It can't be both ways. Either man has the free will to sin, and the same free will to accept God's gift, or he has no free will at all and every act of man is planned and authored by God. It is the calvinist who has told God how to be sovereign (they made the bed), now they have to sleep in it. Johnp's view of calvinistic sovereignty has to be correct if you believe in calvinism and unconditional election.

 

most all calvinist believe man has a will to choose. But they also believe that mans will is bound by sin to the point that man will never choose God. Man will choose evil over and over again, for it is in his nature to do so. As KJB says...God does not have to force man to sin...he wants to sin.

That is the "bed" that i sleep in...and it was not I that made this bed, but God. I would glady change if shown from Gods holy Word that this is wrong to sleep here. So far I have yet to find mans freewill to choose God any time he wants in the Bible. But what I have found is Man is DEAD in his sin nature.

So...that is what I believe......Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.


In Christ...James

 

That is true - JohnP calls God "the great despot" and claims that HE is the author of all of Satan's words and deeds.

KJB and James will "try" to agree with JohnP as Calvinists as much as they can - but then admit that they can not go as far as JohnP does in his errors.

The "interesting thing" is that it is up to Arminians to clean house for Calvinists.

EVEN when they AGREE with Arminians on some point "Like God NOT being the AUTHOR of sin" they try to leave it to the Arminians to make the case against the wild-eyed Calvinist that is taking a flying leap off of that cliff.

This tells us that they are not always here as objective Bible students -- in fact many times - they are simply here playing Calvinist-against-Arminian "no matter what".

And that is the sad part.

In Christ,

Bob

 

True

But God did not say "Satan do something wicked to Job". RAther God pointed to Job and said to Satan that Job was a prime example of a born-again saint who walked in righteousness - As Romans 8 and 1John 2 dictate for the saints.

God deliberately set Job as "living proof" - and Satan was free to challenge that statement.

Then an "experiement" takes place to SEE IF God is telling the truth.

Question for you James - how did that "Experiment turn out"?? Was God "proven" to be right?

What kind of model is it that sets intelligent beings in such a role as observers in an experiment to SEE IF the results vindiate God??

Is that the "Cavlinist model"??

What part of Calvinism predicts that THIS IS EXACTLY what we should expect?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Dear Bob,

Job says that it was God who took everything away. Job says that he received evil from the hand of God. The Bible says that Job was right. Why would an Arminian disagree?

Your friend,

whatever

 

webdog,

Please I beg of you to read the confession of faith and attempt to understand what it says and check the reference points in Scripture.

I do not say people have no will....we are not rocks. There is a difference between saying men have will and modifying the word will with free.

Its like deeds. Deeds are deeds indeed. But if I put a bad or good in front of the word deed it is indeed changed.

Free will is defined as the “equal” ability under given circumstances , to choose either of two courses of action. No other power determines the choice.

Choice is defined as the mental act that consciously initiates and determines a further action. It is the same as deliberate volition.

All the people of the earth are nothing compared to him. He has the power to do as he pleases among the angels of heaven and with those who live on earth. No one can stop him or challenge him, saying, `What do you mean by doing these things?' Daniel 4:35

People that are in opposition to God are captives. Captives are not very free even if they think they are! Jesus sets captives free. Free from what?

And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will. 2 Timothy 2:24-26

God grants repentance, perhaps, and perhaps not.

It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father." John 6: 63-65

Job 12:13--> NLT
"But true wisdom and power are with God; counsel and understanding are his. What he destroys cannot be rebuilt. When he closes in on someone, there is no escape. If he holds back the rain, the earth becomes a desert. If he releases the waters, they flood the earth."

"Yes, strength and wisdom are with him; deceivers and deceived are both in his power. He leads counselors away stripped of good judgment; he drives judges to madness. He removes the royal robe of kings. With ropes around their waist, they are led away. He leads priests away stripped of status; he overthrows the mighty. He silences the trusted adviser, and he removes the insight of the elders. He pours disgrace upon princes and confiscates weapons from the strong."

"He floods the darkness with light; he brings light to the deepest gloom. He raises up nations, and he destroys them. He makes nations expand, and he abandons them. He takes away the understanding of kings, and he leaves them wandering in a wasteland without a path. They grope in the darkness without a light. He makes them stagger like drunkards."

I would say God is in control.

Regards, KJB

 

whatever,

You make a most excellent, wonderful, and valid point!

To all you mixed up ones out there,

It was told to us why Job was a man that feared God;

"Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied. "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face."

So Bobs' goofy idea that Job is a saint for some reason OTHER than God is absurd. It is God's hedge of protection around Job and not Job.

Who do you think knows Job best? God, Job, Satan? Satan did not make Job, God made Job!

The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger." Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

Now do you think Satan OR any creature for that matter could lay a finger on Job without divine decree?

Does anybody think Job is free to escape the wrath?

God let down His hedge of protection that was on "his household and everything he has".

If God would have kept the hedge of protection could Satan or anybody have done anything at all? No way!

And if God permiited it all to happen why is it not the same to say it was His decree that it would come to pass? And what God decrees to come to pass will it not come to pass?

Sabeans, Chaldeans, Satan, fire from God, wind....all wreaked havoc upon servants, beasts and Jobs very own children.

Do you NOT think for a moment that wind, fire, Chaldeans, Sabeans, and Satan could have been stopped dead in their tracks if it was Gods will to stop them?

Of course He could have but He did nothing to stop it all. And if it was not stopped but could have been stopped why is it not right to say God had decreed it all to take place?

I can assure you that God will hold Chaldeans, Sabeans, and Satan accountable for killing and looting.

Job knew very well that everything that happened was by the sovereign will of God;

At this, Job got up and tore his robe and shaved his head. Then he fell to the ground in worship and said: "Naked I came from my mother's womb,and naked I will depart.The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the name of the LORD be praised."

In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing.

Man does not make the man, God makes the man.

And in all things we Calvinists do not charge God with wrongdoing. Comprende?

Regards, KJB

 

I'm curious if you think that unregenerated man has a conscience or not. If they do, why? If man can only choose evil as you imply, why even know the difference between right and wrong?

I too believe man cannot come to God unless God first acts. We disagree on how God acts, and whose hearts God acts on.

 

Hello Aresman.

Do you mean resist the Holy Spirit no. All men are as they are because of God's will whether that is one way or the other. Sometimes He will bring a person to the very edge of salvation and leave them there to die in their sins and for others, they never get to hear the gospel.

I spent 16 years running away from my encounter with God but God had chosen me and when He was ready I submitted.

I don't think I've ever met a person on fire then gone out. I've known loads of Christians that did not seem to kindle. I am by nature a cold fish. Not much in this world gets me going but my doctrine stops me in my tracks and makes me want to skip up and down but I'm English and we don't do that sort of thing being English.

There is really no other way possible for this to be. The Atonement is very specific, it is only for Israel not the world and for those it was given for it was effective for as it was in Israel. Since the Atonement is given then it is effective regardless of those it is given for. Those it is given for do not have to do a thing but it works.

What you think? Lev 16 has the Atonement sacrifice in. One goat sheds it's blood for the sins of Israel and the guilt is laid on the other and it is then taken out of the land, exiled. Israel has no guilt because the Goat shed His blood and took Israel's guilt and shame.

Romans 9:8 In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.


john.

 

Hi webdog,

You ask a very good question that we hardly ever cover on this forum.

*************
“I'm curious if you think that unregenerated man has a conscience or not. If they do, why? If man can only choose evil as you imply, why even know the difference between right and wrong?”

*************

All men are born with a conscience as I’m sure you know. It says this in Romans. “the law is written on their hearts”.

This clearly would mean that Man has the idea of a right and wrong built into him. But does this mean that Man does seek God? After all…God is good. …God is true….God is right. So does this mean he can find God on his own? The short answer is no.

We have mainly looked at sin and evil on this tread. But there is another working device that hinders salvation in man. This is often times more crafty then the wickedness that grips man. This is..self-righteousness. The new self-love is not new at all. Doing right makes us think we are not all that bad. I hardly ever quote John Calvin, for I like to pull from many sources. But no one said it better then Calvin…on this.
***************
There is
nothing more acceptable to the human mind than flattery, and,
accordingly, when told that its endowments are of a high order, it
is apt to be excessively credulous. Hence it is not strange that the
greater part of mankind have erred so egregiously in this matter.
Owing to the innate self-love by which all are blinded, we most
willingly persuade ourselves that we do not possess a single quality
which is deserving of hatred; and hence, independent of any
countenance from without, general credit is given to the very
foolish idea, that man is perfectly sufficient of himself for all
the purposes of a good and happy life. If any are disposed to think
more modestly, and concede somewhat to God, that they may not seem
to arrogate every thing as their own, still, in making the division,
they apportion matters so, that the chief ground of confidence and
boasting always remains with themselves. Then, if a discourse is
pronounced which flatters the pride spontaneously springing up in
man's inmost heart, nothing seems more delightful. Accordingly, in
every age, he who is most forward in extolling the excellence of
human nature, is received with the loudest applause. But be this
heralding of human excellence what it may, by teaching man to rest
in himself, it does nothing more than fascinate by its sweetness,
and, at the same time, so delude as to drown in perdition all who
assent to it. For what avails it to proceed in vain confidence, to
deliberate, resolve, plan, and attempt what we deem pertinent to the
purpose, and, at the very outset, prove deficient and destitute both
of sound intelligence and true virtue, though we still confidently
persist till we rush headlong on destruction? But this is the best
that can happen to those who put confidence in their own powers.
Whosoever, therefore, gives heed to those teachers, who merely
employ us in contemplating our good qualities, so far from making
progress in self knowledge, will be plunged into the most pernicious
ignorance.

Being a good guy does not help. Good works often hurt us…for we then say…you see..i’m not that bad. How could God be mad at a guy like me? I feed the poor. I walk old ladies across the street. I even go to church. Yet…grace is the saving power of God not our works. Nothing in us…all from God.

Romans 2:10...there is none righteous, no not one.
Romans 3:20..by the deeds of the law shall no flesh be justified...
Romans 3:28...man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law


GRACE


As to why...as you asked above

paul said in romans...

"if i lie..and it brings glory to God...why am i still judged for it?"

All that is done...is done for Gods own glory. Man has the law printed on his heart...and this is to the glory of God. When man sins...the glory of God will be shown in his judgement of sins. If man is saved...Gods glory is shown. When the sun comes up in the morning..this shows Gods glory. When the sun sets at night...it too shows Gods glory. When a big storm hits texas...Gods name is lifted up in power. When food and water comes in to those in the flood...it is to bring glory to God and show His murcy.

it is ALL about God.


In Christ..James

 

Hey Jarthur001

Nice answer!

It is still a good answer considering that you put a Calvinistic spin on it towards the end. Even FG theologians recognize an active conscience and the fact that no one seeks after God.

The non-seeking after God is NOT what divides a FG theologian from Calvin.

Good answer!
Lloyd

 

Good question AresMan!

The Holy Spirit "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" according to John 16.

I think that James is one of those posting on this board that might still able to agree with that obvious point as well as any "other" 3 point Calvinists and any Arminian reading the thread.

The 4 and 5 point Calvinists will probably have some objections.

In Christ,

Bob