What is the difference?

If you thank the LORD that you responded, then you are (correctly) crediting Him with giving you your ability to respond.
</font>[/QUOTE]You still just don't get it, do you?

The gospel is the power of God unto salvation. The words of Christ's message are what we are going to be judged by on that final day. The WORD is what gave us the ability to respond and the WORD is from God. Everyone who hears the word responds to it in one way or the other. Whosoever has the ability to respond in belief or in unbelief. Where does scripture teach otherwise?

 

'If you thank the LORD that you responded, then you are (correctly) crediting Him with giving you your ability to respond.'

Ray: In John 6:44 Jesus gives honor to the Father as to calling sinners to Himself; we most often honor the Holy Spirit as to bringing us to our need of Christ. In John 12:32 the apostle reminds us as to just how inclusive this call is toward a fallen human race. In this verse Jesus was not giving a 'two thumbs up' to John Calvin's Institues of the Christian Religion.

Once the saving message of the Cross is heard the Holy Spirit--'He will reprove the world of sin, of the righteousness of Christ, and of a coming judgment.' [paraphrase of John 16:7-11] The Spirit of God ministers the truth to the sinner and that person will either receive the truth unto life or reject it unto eternal destruction in Hell. [John 5:40 & Acts 7:51]

 

"ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

So by Nick's logic we need to praise Abraham and give him all the "credit" for his righteousness if this verse is accurate.

 

The point of that was directed at the question "how is it that one chooses life and one death - when God calls all - draws all - enables all".

The answer points out the fact that Matt 7 "shows" us that ALL do not accept. So it does not matter if we "don't know how free will works" so that can "Assign to some environmental factor" the reason that one person accepts life and another rejects it - given that all are "enabled" to respond to the Gospel.

In Christ,

Bob

 

(Off topic -- npetreley - do you have some other name like - Nick or Pete or something I can spell?)

I find it hard to believe that you do not see that "some choosing life" while "others choose rebellion" has everything to do with choosing while it also ELIMINATES your need to "blame the creator" or "blame the depravity" of the being who is choosing.

But - I guess we can pretend.

You mean... like the Angels were able to choose?

(Or does this question already leave you lost on how this is related?)

You mean like - "what is it about the 2/3 group that inclines them to choose not to rebell"???

(Or is "this" the part where you don't see that choosing is choosing?? And that positive "respond" is the same as "positive" respond and positive choice??)

Just curious how you are making the "break" between those two identical issues of "choice".

Indeed. For the Calvinist "premise" is that no one "really chooses anything" rather "Something MAKES them choose". You are asking "What is MAKING one choose one thing and then MAKING another choose something else"

Basically you are unnable to objectively adopt the Arminian model and then "evaluate" it to see how it works - because you are still clinging to the Calvinist doctrine that "people only do what they are MADE to do" so that IF one chooses to respond to the Gospel - then something "made them" do it and the Calvinist question will always be "So what MAKES one choose the gospel and what MAKES another not choose it?" -- ie what MAKES the difference? (And don't say Free Will because that it Arminian's "reason" for differences in choice - not Calvinist).

In the Calvinist model - God makes the person choose either by MAKING some part of them do it - or by MAKING events around them that forces them to choose a certain way.

Since we are taking the Arminian preference - then nothing "MAKES them inclined to choose one way or another" rather they are CHOOSING as they do - of their own "Free will" and not because something "MADE THEM" choose it.

It's an Arminian model - not a Calvinist one.

In Christ,

Bob

 

The confusion comes to Calvinists because there were some people during the 1st century who were not able to respond to the gospel.

Calvinists would have us believe that these people couldn't believe because they were born Totally Depraved and not chosen, but that is not what the text says. The scripture teaches that the Jews BECAME hardened after years of rebellion and that their judicial hardening was temporary and for the purpose of ingrafting the Gentiles. Calvinists fail to see that and thus interpret scriptures speaking about the Jews, who were unable to respond to the gospel for a time, as a doctrine for the nature of all men. That is their blindspot.

 

Indeed it is the "goodness of God" that leads you to repentance.. God is not willing for "any to perish but for ALL to come to repentance".

But the same light that warms the heart of one like wax - is hardening the heart of another like clay. Not because God is rejecting one but because one chooses to fall on the rock and be broken - while the other chooses to resist - and the rock falls on them and crushes them.

Same rock - but the person choses and different response.

As God said of Christ in John 1 - "HE CAME to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not".

They were "the chosen" and they did not receive Him who chose THEM.

In Christ,

Bob

 

This is getting old Nick.

Question:What MAKES a person choose to accept the gospel?
Answer: The revealed truth of the gospel itself allows one to accept it as truth. The gospel is quite powerful and persuasive so why should we have a problem saying that it is the CAUSE for us believing? What was the cause of you believing George Washington was our first president? Because you were told the truth. I'm over simplify, I know, but its to show the point that there doesn't have to be some misterious inward working going on here. Have you considered the possiblity that God actually did create men with a volition, an ability to think and reason? Is that just too difficult for your mind to accept is possible for our soveriegn Lord to create?

Question: What MAKES a person choose to reject it?

Answer: Nothing "MAKES" him except himself. Don't you agree with that? Surely you don't think its God who MAKES him reject, its him.

By the way, you never answer the question. If Paul doesn't have a problem crediting man for his faith, why do you?

 

Just like you will dance around or ignore my questions under the unfounded premise that I'm "deceptive."

Again, let me remind you that you have a similiar problem. Your system can't get around ascribing God partial blame for man's condemnation and sin. Further, you still have the issue that some believers are "BETTER" than others. Why is that? Why are some rewarded greater than others if men have no part? Can you boast for having a better grasp of God's plan for salvation? If not, why did God grant that grasping ability to you and not to most believers? I guess you have reason to boast for God giving you superior knowledge of scripture?

We can all create problems for the logic of the others system, just as I'm sure we could create problems for the revealed truth, but that doesn't make it stop being true.

 

Wrong. The fact that you're not listening does not require that I "dance around the subject". If you would pay attention to the details of what is said - you would "See" that the Calvinist "assumption" that "something has to MAKE people do what they do" is NOT the ARminian assumption - it is the Calvinist one.

You pretend to be objectively looking at the Arminian position - as you keep insisting on the Calvinist fallacy that "you only do what you are MADE to do".

Do you not "get the point yet"? To objectively review the Arminian model - you have to use ITS views not Calvinism INSERTED into the middle of it.

I never claimed that a bogus calvinist-arminian hybrid model would work (though you keep insisting that this is all there is).

In Christ,

Bob

 

Yes that is what I say - because if I argued "People ONLY choose what they are MADE to choose" I would be a Calvinist.

Is that so hard to understand??

This point just isn't that hard to get.

In Christ,

Bob

 

#1. Nothing "About the person" in terms of genetic material - environment - God "making Him do something" etc is the "determination factor". AS hard as this is going to be for you to accept.

#2. I never said that free will was inherent in each individual - just that God sovereignly and supernaturaly causes it to exist EVEN for sinners.

#3. The point of the Angels has already been well established. 1/3 of the perfect sinless loving Agnels chose rebellion while 2/3 of the sinless, perfect, loving Angels chose life and obedience. As hard as this is for you to accept - it happened.

What "INCLINED them to choose obedience"??

What "INCLINED 1/3 of them to choose rebellion"??

Answer - they did not CHOOSE because they were pre-disposed to error or created with INCLINATION to error. Nothing "MADE THEM" choose as they did.


Period.

Nothing "MAKES" them choose error.

Nothing "LEADS them" to choose error.

This is not a Calvinist model.

As hard as it is for Calvinists - nothing about the way God created 2/3's of the Angels made them "BETTER CHOOSERS" than the 1/3 that chose rebellion. Nothing about the way God made them - determined that they had to choose life while the others had to choose death.

As hard as it may seem - there is no way to pin it on God.

In Christ,

Bob

 

BobRyan,

What Nick is missing is the fact that men have the ability to reason and to think for themselves. He fails to notice in scripture that Christ calls men to consider the cost of being his disciple and that God himself calls us to come reason together with him.

If our reason, our choices, weren't a factor in our relationship then why is it mentioned at all? The entire meaning of the text is undermined and become complete non-sense when the human variable is removed.

Some Calvinists attempt in vain to keep it intact because they reconize this truth, but it becomes mere symantics. They say things like, "Me are able, just not willing," or they create "paradoxes" and explain them by saying, "His ways are higher" or whatever it takes to maintain some sense to the obvious meaning of the text.

But you are correct. They approach this question with the presumption that something must MAKE a man choose one thing or the other.

What Nick is trying to get you to say is, "The difference is the man." So then he can say, "SEE! You believe in works salvation and you have room to boast." But the problem is that Paul NEVER teaches that men could boast of their faith. He teaches that men could boast of their works of the law and he always holds faith as the antithisis for works, not the equivelant.

Paul, quoting the OT, has no problem crediting Abraham with righteousness based upon HIS faith, yet Calvinists do.

 

This is why I keep bringing up the 1/3 vs the 2/3 among the angels. So he can see that his claim that "it is something about the way they were made" will be tossed out.

Just no way to blame this on the maker -- but they can't stop saying "something MAKES people choose as they do -- maybe something ABOUT the person and the way they are MADE".

In Christ,

Bob

 

Yes you "say" you want to start with the Arminian position that nothing MAKES them choose one way or the other - - but then you ask "So what MADE them choose one way or the other? AND don't say NOTHING MADE them choose one way or the other as your answer".

But of course you use "inclined" and "predisposed" instead of "MADE", and something ABOUT THE PERSON (the way they were MADE?).

Ok I give. Try this.

Well of course it is the way they were MADE! God MADE them choose that way by the way He MADE them! You are right! it is SOMETHING about those 2/3 of the Angels that obeyed - something about the way they were MADE! God did it!

But that would be Calvinism.

Indeed! As I have ALREADY said... it is "Genetic" (the way you were MADE) or it is environmental (Something in your ENVIRONMENT MADE you like Pizza).

Surely you get it. It is the ONLY way Calvinists explain choice.

But Arminians don't do that. 1/3 of the Angels did not choose rebellion because of genetics OR because their environment MADE them sin and MADE the 2/3's remain faithful.

This whole thing of genetics or environment MAKING someone reject the Gospel even though Christ enables them to choose - is out the window in Free Will.

The person that MADE your genetics (if you are claiming that one) or the person that MADE your environment be as it is - (if you are claiming that one) is the person that MADE you choose pizza...

In Christ,

Bob