Featured What is the Minimum amount of theology needed to get saved?

:godisgood::thumbs:

 

dude,

Hello Dude,

I do not share your low view of theology.I can understand your objection to some of the fighting and bickering that goes on however.This can and should be improved upon....yes.

Jesus expected Nicodemus to know doctrine;

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

He expected him to understand from scripture what he was speaking about.

Jesus rebuked the apostles in Lk 24
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

This is doctrine...taught, expounded, discussed, and believed.

We are to be Christ centered and word centered;
38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

A disciple.....follows the teachings of a teacher.To say that theology does not matter is anti biblical itself.As much as DHK and I go after each other on several issues....He has posted in agreement on this fact that we can have no true discipleship or saving belief ...if a person does not have a true knowledge of God and His salvation...Jesus person and work,what did Jesus say .what are we to do?
Is baptism important? Is study important for any reason? or should we just replace it all with modern entertainment, personal stories about out of body experiences,and of course...the secret prayer language....how about praying the rosary beads???? did the virgin mary appear to the little girls in france? Why should we judge Joseph Smith, or Mary Baker Eddy?
Can we work for our salvation? Did the hippies have the correct message, make love not war? Is church important, or sort of optional? Does anything matter at all? is any truth worth dying for?

This is unbiblical in and of itself....you can believe what you want.I believe that the writer to hebrews speaks to this attitude;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Again...this is a tragic and low view of scripture as if there is no difference or importance about what is believed.

You describe religion here. God given salvation is Spirit and word driven.You propose a disconnect that you cannot offer a biblical defense for.

A new age reiki master could offer the same carnal reasoning to defend it's ideas.
Roman Catholics many of whom remain ignorant of truth are taught the same thing.....We priests will tell you what to believe....you do good works, put some money in the basket, smile at everyone, make the sign of the cross, do not listen to those bible believers who want to study the bible..
doctrine divides you know.....
Every false teacher diminishes doctrine...so they can slip their false ideas in it's place.They do not want people who know anything about their bibles who can see when they are just saying what they feel like.

The scripture however says the blood will be upon the head of the false watchman from Ezekiel, as well as this from 2 pet.

2 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

They bring in that which is false...speak evil against the truth...Peter did not share you view Dude...he believed truth matters and heresies will be trying to replace truth. They would make merchandise of the people by selling their books , instead of teaching from scripture....they become story tellers....personal experience instead of doctrinal based truth.

 

True. Now tell us about that Person.

 

Knowing about God is not knowing Him. Salvation is not through or from the Bible, it is from the Lord. You can have all the book knowledge in the world about God, heaven, salvation, hell, angels, etc., and still be as lost as that famous Dutchman's mine. What saves is the blood of Jesus, the knowledge that it covers our sins and establishes us before God the Father, enabling us to love and live with Him eternally. While you might call that "theology", it is of the crudest and most fundamental type. That "theology" comes directly from God and is not acquired through "study." It is acquired from the Holy Spirit.

And that's all there is to that.

 

Did Adam learn of God before or after he was given breath?

 

Which God? Ram, Allah? Ganesh?
Which God do you know? If you do not know about God, then perhaps you are worshiping the wrong God. How would you know?
Examine yourself to KNOW whether you are in the faith. You must KNOW whom you believe before you KNOW Him who you believe, otherwise you will be deceived in Whom you are believing.

If it is not from the Bible who is it from:
the Koran? the Vedas? The Granth (Sikh Scriptures)? Gnostic knowledge, Mysticism?
Which Lord does it come from? Lord Siva? Lord Ram? Lord Baalzebub? Which Lord?
If Jesus is Lord of lords, realize that there are many "lords." How do you know you have the right one, except it be through the Scriptures.

That is true. I have given before an example of a Muslim I know of that memorized the NT, but obviously is still not saved.
It is the application of Biblical doctrine that gives salvation.
One must know the Biblical Christ, salvation according to the Bible, the Biblical message, etc. Salvation is not blind; faith is not fatalistic.

The Holy Spirit doesn't work in a vacuum. He works through the Word of God. What you presented is indeed theology. And it isn't crude, unless you are calling both God and Christ crude, and that is a crude thing to do.
"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Christ is the Word. Why do you demean him.
The doctrine, (teaching and knowledge) is theology (study of God). How could you know such things except you have read the Bible or heard the Bible as it was presented to you.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

The Holy Spirit didn't teach you that; the Word of God did.

If you were a pagan sitting in Africa with no access to any Bible or missionary of any kind, how would the Holy Spirit reveal that to you? He wouldn't or couldn't. It is through the Word that you would learn. Thus the necessity of missionaries to fulfill the Great Commission and take this wonderful message to the ends of the world. What part are you playing in fulfilling the Great Commission?

 

There is no God but Yahweh. There is no God but Yahweh who can reveal Himself supernaturally to everyone. There is no God but Yahweh who sends His Holy Spirit to draw, call and reveal truth to all men.

What part of this do you not get, DHK? It is obvious there is only one God who can do the things I've outlined. How could you think I would suggest any of those penny-ante, tin-pot, dime-store "gods" could be the God who does such things? Gimme a break!

When God reveals Himself, there is no doubt who He is or what He does. No one could possibly think He is any but Who He reveals Himself to be. The thought is ludicrous.

 

Not a LOW View at all....

How's it going IC? It's been a while since we talked! I appreciate you because unlike some that are now on the board, you hit above the waist, and I know where you stand, regardless of agreement!


....just a low view of those who stand and quote their particular views of their favorite brand of theology, and call it of God.

If Mormon theology is correct, the remainder of us are in serious trouble!

If JWs are correct, the remainder of us are in trouble!

If some forms of Baptists are correct, no one but that sect of Baptists will get to heaven! Again, the remainder of us are in trouble!

If Rome is correct, the remainder of us are going to hell in the proverbial infant Moses hand basket.

If Sciencitogoly is correct, everyone else is wrong!

If Lutherans, Presbyterians and the likes are correct, the only way to Jesus is by way of catechism, confirmation of faith and church membership! The membership thing is part and parcel of many churches to guarantee them, a steady income and a place in society. After all, we got to see who has the most marbles in their bag, and the ones with the most marbles are the ones that are referred to as mainline religions, the others become cults and break off branches of the once staunch religious group they no longer agree with!

This is why I ask....where and when will it all stop? Actually, it won't, and I trust, that there will be a whole lot of folks in heaven that while on earth were considered members of a false our heretic religious group!

Again....where and when does it stop??? It doesn't because since Jesus came to establish the church, good ol' boys set themselves up as the true men of understanding, and when another man decided he was enlightended; he left and started his own brand of religion!

I've always said, and will stand by this...religion [theology is at the root of all religion] is of man; relationship is of Jesus. Jesus came to give those who came to him by child-like faith, a new life. A life that is, in fact, one built upon and in relationship, not religion!

The problem is that once we get that relationship started, we start to go in different directions because of theological leanings, and that isn't necessarily wrong, JUST SAD!!!

 

Hello Dude,

Dude...as usual...you do make some sense and I can in part agree with you. Division is far from ideal. Thankfully in heaven there will no longer be that kind of confusion.

I honestly believe that if we are going to error...we should error on the side of scriptural caution.....you seem to be shall i say....more open, or free spirited???

I am not your judge...to your own master you stand or fall. You know I will come right at you when we disagree....and I know you will stand your ground.

DHK...believes I have strayed off because I have a different hermenutic than he employs.I respect his right to come after my posts and seek to offer correction to me scripturally...
The "bickering" comes in more when I see him employ tactics that I have asked him not to. Dude...you know by now i can speak for myself...even if I place my foot in mouth upon occasion. I do not like when he speculates and attributes ideas to me that I myself have not said...so I call him on this.

Believing what i do about scripture as many others have comes with some degree of resistance from within the professed church...it goes with the territory.

Even though DHK goes after me also...he knows I will stand with him on dare I say...the fundamentals of the faith. That being said...when he and others trash many of my brothers in the faith on these issues...he knows I will reply and if need be quite pointedly.He is not a novice.I agree with him when I can...and I oppose him when I need to. iron sharpens iron...many use this kind of forum to stay sharp to be ready to face open enemies of the cross.

I believe your view which suggests to me as written...a very low view of doctrine which is designed to bring unity to the saints, not division;
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:


We all might need to focus on the love part a bit more!

My fear in a sense is that many more will be rejected because they did not properly esteem the importance of doctrinal truth embraced and obeyed....THESE WORDS I FIND TO BE CHILLING...

47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

many of these liberal groups,all cults....are not going to make it...according to these words spoken to sincerely religious people.

 

2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

There is only one God, and then there are man fabulous imitators of that one God who are constantly at work that "if it were possible would deceive the very elect." And I believe it is possible. In fact most of the time we don't know who the elect are. Some of them (if not many) are not elect at all but wolves in sheep's clothing working as ministers for that "angel of light" that Paul referred to in 2Cor.11:14.

Does Benny Hinn worship the same God that you do? Mull over that one for a while. He believes there are nine persons in the trinity. He does miracles in the name of Jesus. Great crowds follow him "in Jesus name."

 

I think a better wording for the question is, "What must one confess to before he is allowed fellowship?"

The original wording is saying that there is something one must know before he is born of God. It also smacks a bit of Gnosticism—not intentionally, I'm sure.

 

Bingo!! Give this man a cee-gar, a six-pack, a disco record, a can of snuff, a pair of shorts, and most of all, a flea bath...

In serious mode now......very good post, and spot on, imo....

 

First and foremost, God must change a sinner's "want to's". When I was a sinner, my allegiance was to myself, and I wanted nothing to do with God. Sure, I'd talk all day to people about the bible, even get chill bumps, but if someone tried to "convert" me, I'd push them off. I was wanting my cake and to eat it too, iow. I didn't want to waste my time at church sunday morning when I could party, go to the chicken fights, get drunk, chase the girls, and then sleep in late sunday while those christians got up early to go to church. But when God "rattled my cage" in a way He hadn't before, He changed my desires, my "want to's" and caused me to repent.

 

So...if he causes you to repent it also means he also causes the reprobate to not repent, while commanding him to repent. Talk about cake and eating it too :smilewinkgrin:

 

No, he does not. But then, God hasn't revealed Himself to Benny Hinn, has He?

You don't see to get what I'm saying, so I'll prayerfully consider a response before I post ont his threat again.

 

What kind of theology do you adhere to--hardcore determinism??
What do you mean "God hasn't revealed himself to Benny Hinn?
That is one of the most ludicrous statements I have ever heard.
Benny Hinn travels in evangelical circles. He has heard the gospel more times than most people will ever get a chance to hear or will more times than any person will ever hear it in their lives. He has no excuse.

His problem is that he makes up his own doctrine, trusting in his own wisdom, the foolishness of man rather in the wisdom of God--God's Word.
He has rejected the Word of God and replaced it for his own wisdom.

Yes, God has revealed himself to him, and he rejected him.
It is the same scenario in the NT.
Jesus "came to his own and his own received him not."
He was revealed, and rejected. They had no excuse.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Notice these men "hold the truth." The wrath of God is revealed against them; against all their ungodliness and unrighteousness. They have the truth, and yet they stand in unrighteousness. Thus is Benny Hinn.

 

I didn't say he has an excuse, as you're quite right, he has none. I said God hasn't revealed Himself to him.

And there you have it. No one can reject truth once they recognize it. How does one recognize it? Paul tells us.

Hebrews 11, NASB
1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.​

The word "assurance" -- hupostasis in the Greek -- means the foundation upon which something is laid. To believe, all that is necessary is faith. It is the very foundation of belief. When does it become belief? It is confusing, because Paul also writes,

1 Corinthians 1
18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.​

If it were one minute "foolishness" and the next minute the very word of God, how else would that happen other than by divine revelation -- the supernatural giving of truth through the power of the Holy Spirit? The answer is, it can't, it doesn't, it won't. Theology is necessary for sanctification, not for salvation.

God's revelation of Himself is truth. I'm sure Hinn has heard the gospel, but he does not accept it as truth. He prefers his own interpretation, which not coincidentally enables him to bilk millions of people, many of whom cannot afford the "gifts" they send this charlatan.

God enables all who believe to recognize truth. Had God revealed Himself to Hinn, Hinn would believe. Only when the Holy Spirit simultaneously opens the spirit, the intellect and the emotions to truth does it become "truth" to the one who then believes. I can tell you that the UFO sightings of the last 4,000 years have been from the planet Minegus, fifth from the star system Alpha Centauri in the southern hemispheric constellation of Centaurus, but you would not accept that, even though (strictly hypothetical, illogical, doubtful and very likely impossible) that it is true. Until you have enough evidence that it is true, you will continue to reject it.

That is an overly simplified example of why unbelievers who have heard the gospel do not believe. They have no evidence it is true. Hinn is a nonbeliever for this reason -- though he is a unique case in that he thinks he "believes" though obviously he does not. Why is that? In the case of God's truth, only God can enable the faith necessary that convincingly speaks to the spirit, intellect and emotions so that the gospel is a "known fact," not a "supposition based on incomplete knowledge."

 

God reveals himself through His Word. Benny Hinn has the Word of God; has read it; studied it; and heard it many times. Christ has been revealed to him. He has rejected him.

Christ revealed himself to the Jews. Out of jealousy they raised up false witnesses, accused him unjustly, delivered him to Pilate to be crucified. They rejected truth and Christ, and the kingdom that he offered. It was their choice. No one forced them to reject Christ.

Nonsense. Once truth is given every person is responsible for their actions--whether to receive it or reject it. No one forces them to do either.

This verse is a simple description of faith. Faith and belief are the same. Faith in Christ is the same as belief in Christ. If I have faith that my car will start I believe my car will start. They are two words that have the same meaning used in different ways. One is a noun, the other is a verb (to believe).

The gospel is theology. Without it a person cannot be saved. Everything we know about God, Christ, salvation, etc. is theology--a study of God. One cannot be saved except through doctrine.

He is more of a charlatan than any thing else. Nevertheless it was his CHOICE to reject the truth of God. No one forced him. There is no hard determinism here.

On the Day of Pentecost, there was about 100,000 present. The account says that they were "cut to the heart," meaning very convicted of the Holy Spirit. They then cried out "Men and brethren what shall we do?" Then Peter told them to "Repent..." (2:38). 3,000 were saved. But the rest, the great majority, 97,000 resisted the Holy Spirit, His conviction, and refused to trust Him. God had revealed himself. The Holy Spirit had drawn them. But they refused Him any way.

You do not have evidence to back up your so-called "truth."
When the gospel was presented to me it was on the basis of the resurrection that is the evidence that the gospel is truth. I cannot deny that the resurrection took place. You have no evidence to prove your theories. Thus doctrine is important. Doctrine presents facts over the myth of other religions.

They reject the gospel out of the depravity of their own heart; because they are rebellious toward God. That is the only reason.

He rebels against the truth of God. Money is more important to him then God.

 

Explain the use of differing words: pisteuo = "believe"; pistis = "faith", and ...

... that ain't it.

Do you know the difference between a noun and a verb? And do you know how the noun form of a word vs. the verb form makes the word different? If they weren't different, they couldn't fit into the individual categories to which they are assigned.

Take, for example, the word "license." If I ask for your driver's license, I am asking for the card that claims you are allowed to drive. You physically possess a license but it does not tell me if you can drive, as it may be lapsed, or you may have had a head injury and forgotten how to drive, and is therefore useless. If I ask if you are licensed to drive, I am asking if you have met the requirements from the state to acquire a license, which means that you have actually acquired the knowledge and proven through testing that you, in fact, know how to drive. The difference may be subtle, but is actually quite vast. So, therefore, is the difference between pistis and pisteuo.

The noun form (pistis, feminine, in the Greek) is that implement by which salvic knowledge of God is given -- or as the definition implies, upon which salvic knowledge is founded. The verb form (pisteuo, neuter in the Greek) is indicative of having actively put that faith into action so as to have salvic knowledge of God. They are not the same word, and to claim a noun and verb are the same word is to merely know they speak of the same thing without understanding the subtleties of why they are classified as separate parts of speech.

Utter nonsense (as you accused me of stating earlier). We don't "know everything about God" when we are saved. We only understand -- through His divine revelation and enabling of our faculties to grasp it -- that we are sinner in need of a Savior, and that He is Christ. I'll grant you, it may be theology at it's barest, most minimum definition. But as you said in another post, "theology" is the "study of God." New believers haven't studied God. They have only come, through God's divine ability to help them know it is truth, that they have come to the end of themselves and seen God there.