What is the name of this Church ?

One cannot go past the definition of the word given, especially in the language that it was given in. Ekklesia means assembly. It is impossible to have an unassembled assembly which a universal church is. Where does it assemble and how does it assemble. What kind of organization does it take, and how does it function? The very thought of this is ludicrous. There is no such thing in the NT.
Your concept may be defined as the family of God, but not as the church or a local church. There were churches, assemblies, not one grand universal assembly. It just doesn't make sense. The only time that all believers will "assemble" together is in heaven. Never will they assemble at any time on earth. It is an impossibility. To go against the definition of the word is not good hermeneutics.
To try and squeeze the English definition of a word in the Greek meaning of the word is wrong.

 

Dr Walter...

Thats not true.

Multitutes upon multitudes of local churchs work co-operatively with each other...crossing denominal lines...because of their understaning of the universal church truth.

Nonsense. The exact opposite occurs..

Completely false. The members of Gods church are all of those who have placed faith in Christ, and been sealed into the body by the Holy Spirit.

No, it does not.

If a local church fails to have certain standards regarding membership..(must be a believer in Christ, must be water baptised, etc..the fault rests completely on the LOCAL CHURCH, and THAT local church ALONE.

There were no christians before the reformation???

No, you guys are the ones distorting things.

Jesus Christ CLEARLY taught...that upon the rock of Faith in Him, He will build His CHURCH.(singular)

Not "churches".(plural)

I dont think Fred Astaire could dance around something so easy to understand any better than how you guys are "dancing around' that statement of Christs.

The scriptures are our instruction book, and no true christian group will ever look elswhere. You guys have nothing to fear regarding that issue.

Of course the Great Commision is about making disciples

Thats why members of Gods universal church share Christ with people and disciple them.

The individual fellowships who make up the universal church will or course be making disciples.

They are part of Gods Church...of COURSE they will be doing that!

 

You have got to be kidding??? No Christians before the Reformation?? Where have you lived all your life - in a cave? Have you read the Waldenses confession of faiths on salvation before the Reformation???

Since the Reformers introduced the Universal Church to the world as "invisible" there has been a revolution and avalanche of new denominations increasing every year until there are over 30,000 presently and you think this is UNITY??????

My friend, what you have demonstrated to me is inability to use common sense and total ignorance of history.

 

Actually, the First Baptist Church of Jerusalem was not known by that name. Neither was the FBC Damascus or Antioch Baptist. But Baptists ought to claim kinship with those congregations, since historic Baptist doctrines are similar if not the same.

No. Thank God for the kingdom, made up of subjects of the King of Kings.
The scriptures know of only one kind of church--a local congregation. There are references to the church in a generic or institutional sense, in the same way we refer to the family. But there are only real, living breathing families.

We may also refer to the church in a prospective sense, when we all gather as a general assembly in heaven. Then it will truly be universal.

By the way, did you attend the last meeting of the U-church? Did they take up an offering, or observe the Lord's Supper. Did you get a report from the missionaries the U-church sent out and supports?

Did you have a nice worship service?

And by the way, what's so wonderful and glorious about a fractured, dysfunctional organization that is useless in carrying out the great commission; that doesn't contribute one dime; that never meets; and is made up of people from religious groups which hold to heresy?

Sorry for the sarcasm, just trying to make my point.

 

And, in I Cor 12:27, Paul referred to the congregation at Corinth this way:
"Ye are THE body of Christ..."

In that case, the church I serve is THE body of Christ. So is yours.

 

Dr Walter....

Ummm.....no, Dr Walter. I did not say there were no christians before the reformation.

Did you miss the QUESTION MARKS (????) after that statement?

You posted that there was no Universal church before the reformation.

Since the "Church" is Gods people, then your statement would be like saying there were no christians before the reformation.

Hence, my statement ....

...with question marks.

SEE??


Since there WERE christians before the reformation, there MUST be a universal church before the reformation.

Your statement that there wasnt...is false.

 

If it was written in every instant as called out ones would this not solve all questions and problems? They could be assembled or not and I do not think it would change the context.

 

Tom Butler...

Praise God!

Except for those other times, such as when Jesus Christ said that He would build His Church..(not churches, plural) worldwide, on the rock of faith in Him.

Yes. All christians, world wide, are living breathing people. The universal church.

Certainly.

Yes...I did, actually. Our part of it. I play guitar and other instruments, and I provided some of the worship music.

The offering, yes. We will have the Lords supper in a couple of weeks.

We currently dont have any, but many others in the body surely do. Thousands world wide. Praise God.

It was excellant, as I'm sure tommorows will be as well.

I know of no christianity that fits that description.

Neither do I.

I know of no christianity that never meets. The USA, Africa, South America, China, Russia, and everywhere else, we are meeting.

That would be the cults. They arent christians.

No problem!

 

Your definition of the "church" is presumption that cannot be demonstrated from the scriptures. The historical use of the term "ekklesia" will not support your supposition. The Biblical use of the term "ekklesia" will not support your position and church history between the writing of the New Testament and the Reformation will not support your definition.

 

Here is some good information regarding the correct uses of the term "ekklesia".....

Hope that helps.


http://www.bible.ca/ef/topical-what-is-church.htm

 

This is not the historical meaning of ekklesia by usage from the earliest Greek usage right up to Matthew 16:18. The Greek ekklesia was a SECULAR legislative body composed of those qualified citizens within the Greek city state who were called out to conduct its affairs. In the New Testament it is used 115 times and scholars agree that out of the 115 times, 97 times, it is used for those baptized believers who were called out of God's kingdom as a SPIIRITUAL administrative body that can and that does habitually assemble to conduct Great Commission affairs.

I might add that by usage the term ekklesia has NEVER been used to mean simply "called out" and NEVER "called out from the world." The Christian ekklesia are those called out from God's kingdom as already saved and baptized people and that is precisely why church membership is not for salvation but has the prerequisite of already saved and baptized before adding to the membership of a church of Christ.

This is absolutely false. Every use of ekklesia for Christ's church is SPIRITUAL whereas the only other use is SECULAR. There is no "spiritual contexts" versus non-spiritual contexts for the use of ekklesia. There is no figurative assembling of people. There are figures of speech used to describe the church (body, building, temple, city, house, etc.). With the exception of the secular use of ekklesia in Acts all other uses are spiritual as it denotes the body of baptized believers that regularly assemble to carry out the SPIRITUAL affairs in God's kingdom on earth. The term is used conceretely and abstractly in regard to churches of Christ here and now and is used eschatalogical for the future assembly in heaven as the bride of Christ.

The term cannot be used at all for a "denomination" or any other of the seven various but wrong applications found in most English Dictionaries. The variety of meanins supplied by the English dictionary is based upon the English term "church" not the Greek term "ekklesia" and the two have very little in common with each other. There is no such thing as a ekklesia in a "universal sense" as that is an oxymoron or the same thing as cold is hot and wet is dry idea. Neither is the ekklesia simply "people" as that is a tragic blunder, but they are BAPTISED PROFESSED BELEIVERS - always and without exception.

Any serious study of Acts 20:28-29 will conclude that the "flock" in verse 28that is defined as the "church" which Christ shed his blood for is the same "flock" in verse 29 that is pastored by the same "elders" the Holy Spirit placed over that flock in Acts 20:17. Every New Testament church is such a "flock" with such elders and has been purchased by Christ as a metaphorical bride (2 Cor. 11:2).

This is false! The church is not a salvational relationship and this can be easily proven. If this were the case then Old Testament saints would be in this church. However, the "foundation" and first members of the New testament church institution were "apostles" not Old Testament saints (Eph. 2:20; I Cor. 12:18). The church is a SERVICE relationship to God that goes beyond profession of salvational relationship but requires SUBMISSION to baptism and willingness to be taught how to observe "all things" commanded (Mt. 28:19-20). Saved persons can be put out of the church ("brother" - I Cor. 5:11; 2 Thes. 3:6) without affecting their salvation RELATIONSHIP with God and be reunited with the church (2 Cor. 2:6).

This is manifestly false. King James in one of his 15 rules for interpreters forced the translators to use ecclesiastical terms in regard to the translation of both ekklesia and baptizo. Instead of translating the term properly as did Tyndale and older English translators by the terms "congregation" or "assembly" they took the term "church" which ultimately is derived from another Greek term "kurikos" (of which the Old English "kirk" is derived) and every new translation since the KJV has followed in this erroneously tradition.

This is simply pure hogwash! There is only two senses the term "ekklesia" is found in the scriptures (1) secular; (2) Christian - PERIOD! Any fool can see that "universal" is that exact opposite of "local" and that "invisible" is the exact opposite of "visible" and all laws of logic deny that "A" can mean both "A" and the opposite of "A" as that is oxymoronic but this is exactly the mental gynastics required by Protestant theologions to justify their "isms".

 

The A,B,C Diagnostic Approach to the Universal Invisible Church Theory​

By Mark W. Fenison​

"And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.- Gal. 3:17 - “chosen in him before the foundation of the world” – Eph. 1:4

A. Salvation Questions:

1. Can Salvation be found OUTSIDE of Christ for anyone at any time? – Jn. 14:6; Acts 4:12

2. Can salvation be found OUTSIDE of Christ for Old Testament saints? – Eph. 1:4; 2 Thes. 2:13

3. Can Salvation be found in ANOTHER GOSPEL SALVATION other than that which was preached to Old Testament Saints? (Acts 10:43; 26:22-23; Heb. 4:2; I Cor. 15:4-5; Gal. 1-8-9)


B. Salvation Facts:

1. All the elect were CHOSEN “in Christ” before the foundation of the world “unto salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth”. Were Old Testament saints chosen “in Christ” or are they part of the non-elect? There is no third option.

2. In regard to POSITION – all mankind are either “in Adam” or “in Christ” – Rom. 5:12-21. In which position are the Old Testament saints? There is no third option

3. In regard to REPRESENTATION – all mankind are either represented “in Adam” or “in Christ.” Who represents the Old Testament saints? There is no third option.

4. In regard to JUSTICE – all mankind are either condemned “in Adam” or justified “in Christ.” Which characterizes the Old Testament saints? There is no third option.

5. In regard to SPIRITUAL STATE – “All in Adam die” but “all in Christ are made alive.” In which condition are Old Testament saints? Spiritually dead or spiritually alive? There is no third option.


6. In regard to REDEMPTION – all mankind are either unredeemed “in Adam” or redeemed “in Christ.” Are Old Testament saints redeemed or unredeemed? There is no third option.

7. In regard to SPIRITUAL UNION – all mankind are either in spiritual union with Satan (Eph. 2:2) or in Spiritual union with Christ. Who are Old Testament saints in spiritual union with? There is no third option.

8. In regard to FAMILY – all mankind are either in the family of Satan (Jn. 8:44) or in the family of God. Which family are the Old Testament saints in? There is no third option.

9. In regard to BIRTH – all mankind are only natural born or spiritual born (Jn. 3:3-9). Are Old Testament saints natural born or spiritual born? There is no third option.

10. In regard to SALVATION STATUS – all mankind are either lost or saved. Are Old Testament saints lost or saved. There is no third option.

11. In regard to HOLY SPIRIT INDWELLING – all mankind is either indwelt by an unholy spirit (Eph. 2:2) and “in the flesh” (Rom. 8:7-9a) or indwelt by the Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:9). Who indwells Old Testament saints? In Romans 8:7-9 Paul gives no third option for any man.

12. In regard to JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH “in Christ”, why does Paul give as our example an Old Testament saint (Abraham) if he were not justified by faith “in Christ”? See Gal. 3:17 and Rom. 4.

C. Three basic Problems with the Universal Invisible Church Theory and their interpretation of Spirit baptism as being placed in the position of spiritual union with Christ.

1. The baptism in the Spirit is time fixed – Pentecost – Acts 1:5. Hence, no one previous to Pentecost could be baptized in the Spirit = no one could be put in spiritual union with Christ. If that is true, then either the Old Testament Saints were saved OUTSIDE of Christ OR they are still “in Adam” both positionally and representatively, which means they are still in spiritual union with Satan, in the family of Satan, in the kingdom of Satan, spiritually dead, unjustified, condemned and lost. There are no other options.

2. The Foundation of the Church is constructed wholly out of New Testament materials – “apostles and prophets” (Eph. 2:20) and prophets are set “secondarily” in the church after apostles (I Cor. 12:28). However, if spiritual union with Christ is placement into the church or body of Christ, then either Old Testament saints are saved OUTSIDE of Christ OR they are still “in Adam” both positionally and representatively, which means they are still in spiritual union with Satan, in the family of Satan, in the kingdom of Satan, spiritually dead, unjustified, condemned and lost. There are no other options

3. The gospel of salvation has always been the same (except for tense – forward looking to the cross in contrast to backward looking - Acts 10:43; 26:22-23; Heb. 4:2; Jn. 14:6; Acts 4:12; etc.). However, since the baptism in the Spirit and the church never existed in the Old Testament, then it cannot possibly be part of gospel salvation UNLESS Old Testament saints were saved OUTSIDE of Christ by “another gospel” or they are still “in Adam” both positionally and representatively, which means they are still in spiritual union with Satan, in the family of Satan, in the kingdom of Satan, spiritually dead, unjustified, condemned and lost. There are no other options.

CONCLUSION​

Spiritual Union “in Christ” is obtained exclusively by regeneration not Spirit baptism or membership into any kind of church. Spiritual position “in Christ” is obtained exclusively by justification by faith in the gospel not Spirit baptism or membership into any kind of church. The Universal Invisible Church/Body of Christ theory perverts the gospel and perverts salvation by confusing salvation “in Christ” with service “in Christ.” Salvation “in Christ” is by regeneration/conversion. Service “in Christ” is by water baptism into the membership of a local visible church body for service.​

 

Dr Water

I think you are saying that not everyone that has been "saved" since Pentecost after the resurrection of Jesus are necessarily a part of the church.

Is this correct?

 

Dr Walter...

The 1st line or you post says this...

The very 1st statement disqualifies the information you posted.

NOTHING that I have posted regarding this issue has said ANYTHING about anyone being saved in any way other than faith in Christ.

I have consistently referred to the universal church as being all born again christians world wide.

And you still have to deal with the main issue, that being....

Jesus Christ Himself refered to all of the christians on earth as being part of His church, when he said...

(faith in christ)..

(Singular)


Not "churchs" (plural)


(((CHURCH))).....Singular


Its just so simple. :thumbs:


And the information I posted in my post #30 makes clear that "ecclesia" works in both the singular and plural sense.


You have some things to deal with. you seem to be evading them.

Why are you doing that?

 

You need to go back and seriously reread my post and do it carefully as you have misunderstood what I have said. Let me break it down into a couple of sentences and then go back and read it and you will see what I mean.

1. If the church = all the saved then do you mean all before Pentecost as well as after Pentecost???? If not, then do you have one kind of salvation before Pentecost versus after Pentecost?

2. If the church began in Genesis with the first Old Testament saint but all saints from Genesis to Revelation are in this church then how do you explain that the foundation and first set in the church are apostles (Eph. 2:20; I Cor. 12:28).

3. How does one enter into your kind of church? If through the baptism in the Spirit then that excludes all saints prior to Pentecost as there was no baptism in the Spirit before Pentecost - thus - either those before Penteocost were not in your church and therefore not all the saved are in your church or those before Pentecost were not saved.

 

Dr walter...

The "Church" age has always started at pentecost.

Any statement of mine regarding saved people in the "church" is of course from pentecost on.

That should be obvious.

 

The same age can simply be called "The Age of Grace."

 

DHK...

Sure it could.

The age of Grace.

The Church Age.

The dispentation of Grace.




I've heard it called lots of things that fit.

 

"The Church Age" according to whose definition? You have made assumptions and biases in your terminology before a discussion has even started. Thus it is wiser to use another term such as "Age of Grace." The Church Age is the Age where churches are planted.
There is no one "church" or assembly. There will be, once we get to heaven. Again, I recommend that you read Darby's translation, where the word church is not used but ekklesia is accurately translated "assembly." It takes a lot of confusion out of the subject of ecclesiology. There is no such thing as an unassembled assembly, but you think it is possible. It isn't.

 

Alright, lets begin with your beginning point - Pentecost. Are those saints prior to Pentecost saved OUTSIDE of Christ or are they "IN CHRIST"? Are saints previous to Pentecost saved some other way or are they saved "by grace..through faith" in Christ?

Answer these questions carefully in regard to Acts 10:43; Heb. 4:2; Rom. 3:25 and Acts 26:22-23; Acts 4:12; Jn 14:6 and Matthew 7:13-14?