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Featured What is the Righteousness of God?

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by Van, Jul 8, 2015.

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  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    No, not before Christ died! His faith was reckoned as righteousness, Romans 4:4-5.
     
  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Thanks for considering the article, Van. I can't say that I completely agree with Wright, but I do view righteousness as pointing towards God's covenantal relationship with man.

    I will point out that Paul does use words in different ways throughout his writings (for example, "flesh"). But with the "righteousness of God," I don't think that a change is necessary to have it looking towards a covenantal relationship.

    I agree with the theology that you present, but I am not willing right now to agree that this is the "righteousness of God."

    Yes, before Christ died.

    Genesis 15:5-6 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.


    So working off of Genesis, where Abraham is reckoned via faith, I encounter Paul in Romans.

    Romans 4:19-25 Without becoming weak in faith he [Abraham]contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah's womb; yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform. Therefore IT WAS ALSO CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, He who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification.

    I understand this righteousness of God to reflect the covenant with Abraham, and a right standing in that covenant (the Promise). My understanding is that the same righteousness that was credited to Abraham that is credited to us. It is a righteousness by faith, but a righteousness with respect to the promise of God (God’s own covenant with Abraham which spelled out the plan of redemption for the world).

    Perhaps my understanding is clouded because I start with the righteousness of Abraham in Genesis rather than with Paul. I think that this is where Paul is starting, but it may be (as you indicated earlier) a presupposition that I have yet identified. I don’t, of course, think so…but I recognize the possibility. I see righteousness as based on God's covenant...the Promise.


    .
     
    #22 JonC, Jul 11, 2015
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  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Hi JonC, lets re-look at Genesis 15:5-6. What is the "it" in verse 6? It is Abraham's faith (belief) in God. This view matches Romans 4:4-5, with "his faith" is credited as righteousness. Clearly the "it" of Genesis 15:6 is Abraham's faith.

    As I said, the word translated as righteousness does not mean "covenantal righteousness." None of the verses is talking about "God's own righteousness" but the righteousness God bestows on those God places in Him.

    Yes, sometimes a word is used to mean different things, but can you give me the two verses where Paul's means something other than actual flesh (literal usage) and figuratively for our fleshly desires, i.e. sinful inclination? Both usages are found in the lexicons.

    To be clear, I say the "righteousness of God" refers to the righteousness from God that we become in Christ, holy, blameless and perfect. All I can do is present the evidence and refute alternate views. The rest is up to you. Romans 4:22 simply repeats the "it" was credited and still is clearly defined as "his faith."
     
    #23 Van, Jul 12, 2015
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  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Thank you for walking me through your understanding here. At the start we seem to part to a degree, and I think this difference effects our conclusions. I believe the "it" in Gen 15:6 does not refer to a belief in God but a faith "that what God had promised He was able to do." That is covenantal and affects my view of this "righteousness."

    Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk
     
  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Certainly Abraham's faith was in "God will do what He promised." But that does not make Abraham righteous before Christ shed His blood. Nor does it turn the word translated "righteousness" into coventantal faithfulness. It is not that God's righteous character does not include coventatal faithfulness, but that we are talking about a righteousness that we become rather than what God is.
     
  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I disagree here. Paul is quoting Genesis when he says that by faith was reckoned as righteous. The New Testament does not stand alone theologically (and I’m not, BTW, accusing you of that opinion. I just think it very applicable here as well). Paul not only points to that passage in Genesis, but he also expounds on this righteousness of Abraham being reckoned 400 years before the Law. Abraham’s righteousness was before the Cross.
    We do become this righteousness, I agree. Jesus Christ is this righteousness in a very real and meaningful way (Jesus embodied the covenantal aspects spelled out to Abraham, He fulfilled the Old Covenant - but more important to this conversation, He is the fulfillment of the covenant made with Abraham, the Promise upon which Abraham believed and was considered righteous in Genesis) so Abraham’s faith in God’s faithfulness to his Promise is a faith in Christ. We become this righteousness and it is through us that Christ continues this ministry of reconciliation.

    You do make a good point that the righteousness of God is not something that "God is." This righteousness reflects God's own faithfulness and His nature, but it is not what God "is." My earlier conclusion that this was what you were speaking of was wrong (and I apologize for that misunderstanding).
     
    #26 JonC, Jul 12, 2015
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  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Hi JonC, I have shown it was Abraham's faith and not Abraham that was reckoned as righteousness. You have not rebutted that analysis.

    No verse says Abraham was reckoned as righteous. None, zip nada.

    You referenced two verses, and both actually indicated Abraham's faith was reckoned as righteousness.

    And the righteousness from God in view is not Jesus Christ. We become the righteousness in Him. It is through His sacrifice that we are made righteous.

    Hopefully we agree that the righteousness from God does not refer to God's own righteousness which includes His coventantal faithfulness, but refers to our becoming holy and perfect and blameless in Christ.

    One of the rules of bible study is that if the straightforward literal sense makes sense, seek no other sense.

     
    #27 Van, Jul 12, 2015
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  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Van,

    Thank you for an interesting discussion, and I apologize that I have misunderstood our disagreement here. I did not distinguish between Abraham being made righteous and the righteousness of his faith. As such, I was speaking past your comment and responding without completely understanding you.
    In Genesis, you are right that the object of reference is Abraham’s faith in the Promise and not Abraham himself. Abraham had faith that God would actualize in the future God's covenantal promises. We are, as the Body of Christ, the "righteousness of God" in a way that Abraham was not. You are correct, and I overlooked the distinction that you were making.

    But on us “becoming the righteousness of God” we have to leave Romans and deal with the context within which Paul speaks. In Romans Paul is specifically dealing with faith, and in 2 Corinthians, I believe the definition itself remains consistent (covenantal), although the subject may shift. This is clear to me in 2 Cor 5, when Paul actually speaks of us becoming the" righteousness of God," that the context is one of God's faithfulness to His redemptive Promise through us.

    God has reconciled us to Himself through Christ. God gave us the ministry of reconciliation - that is, God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. We are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us. We beg, on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. It is in this context that we might become the righteousness of God in Christ. If that is true, and it is, then it follows that we are not “changed” into the righteousness of God, but instead we become the righteousness of God within this “ministry of reconciliation.” It is still a covenantal faithfulness, of which we (like Christ) are representative as we become God’s fulfillment of that promise.

    Another rule of Bible study is to allow the content to define the passage. All through the OT God's righteousness is descriptive of His faithfulness to his word. In Romans it is the same. I think, perhaps, it is also the same when we come to 2 Cor and Phil 3. I believe that if you will allow the passage to speak for itself you may find difficulties in your definition.

    I do believe in regeneration and that we are cleansed and given a new spirit. I do believe that we are sanctified, cleansed and justified in Christ. But I disagree that this is how Paul is using the term the “righteousness of God.”
     
    #28 JonC, Jul 12, 2015
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  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I am never sure we see eye to eye, but I appreciate all that you have contributed toward alternate views of the righteousness of God.
    1) I believe Paul had the same thing in mind when he used the phrase, i.e. the righteousness from God through the sacrifice of Christ.

    2) I do not agree that the "context" of 2 Corinthians 5:21 requires the righteousness from God to become our efforts to carry out our ambassadorship. The idea instead is simply that we become holy, blameless, justified and perfect in Christ, a done deal, and our subsequent "good works" does not add to that righteousness from God.

    3) Philippians 3:9, for me, makes clear how Paul is using the term in every case.

    Thanks again for your contributions to this thread.

    Van
     
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I think that we are closer to seeing eye to eye than we realize, and much of the cloudiness is my working through this. I will have to think a bit more about your objection in #2. I don't understand this righteousness to be our "efforts," per se, as ambassadors of Christ as much as our identity (it is another aspect of actual salvation rather than works). So I agree completely that our "good works" don't add to that righteousness.

    I Know I'm taking us "becoming the righteousness of God" in a different way than you are. You see it as (correct me if I am wrong) a holiness that we become in Christ (or because of His work). I see it as our identity within God's work of reconciliation. We are the righteousness of God to the world as Christ was on earth (and as faith in God's faithfulness to his word was in the Old Testament). I read Philippians 3:9 the same way (being right or faithful in a covenantal sense by faith where he could not through works).

    We may never agree on this term, but I do need to point out that I agree with what you have said regarding salvation and the newness of life. I just think "righteousness" is a different but related term. We are seeing things differently, but at the same time I think that they are closer than we have worked out (because I also see Christ as God's Righteousness...in that same covenantal sense).

    Anyway, I will go back and review what you said as I study the "righteousness of God." I am open to correction, and will consider what you have offered. I've found it takes time as I am often a bit stubborn. Thank you for taking the time to explain your view, and for putting up with me when I misunderstood your points.
     
    #30 JonC, Jul 12, 2015
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  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    My pleasure, not too many folks here actually try to discuss their differing views of scripture. I would like to see more threads with actual discuss.

    Van
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Except that he would clash with Paul in this area, as he seems to do a lot, as it refers to us being found in Christ and God declaring us to be perfect in keeping the law, just as Christ was !

    Its the power of God unto salvation, as God indeed credits to us all that Jesus did for those of us to get saved by the Gospel...
     
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The Law is the Moral standards of the holiness of God, so i that sense, Abraham faith and trust in what God was saying to Him concerning his making of him a great nation and to be a blessing to who;e world was like the Gospel in the OT, but we still have to account for the truth that all have sinned and disobeyed the law of God, and Only jesus death in our stead grants us a sure foundation to stand upon!
     
  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    1) Is the righteousness from God the power of God into salvation? Nope, the gospel of Christ is the power of God for salvation. We do not become the gospel.

    2) The Bible does not say born anew believers are "declared perfect" in keeping the Law. It says we undergo the circumcision of Christ, the washing of regeneration, and we become the righteousness of God. We are spiritually altered according to scripture.
     
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Abraham lived 400 years before the Law (which was more than moral standards of holiness), but his faith in God's Promise was faith in Christ (Christ is the fulfillment of that Promise). I think that it is a mistake not to recognize God's one plan of redemption worked out through salvation history. Both the Old and New Covenants are within the covenant (or promise) that God made with Abraham. I am not saying that you are making that mistake here, but I also am not sure reading your reply. Jesus Christ is and was always the object of saving faith.
     
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God method to save any sinner was and always the Cross of christ, and saved by Grace alone thru faith alone, but the Law of God expresses to us His ansolute standards of morality, His holiness, so that would be in evidence before Moses got the law, just unknown to us in a codified form...

    The method of salvation has nvber changed, but the means and ways God administered that towards us has!
     
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God credits to us the perfection of law keeping Jesus did for our stead, its called penal substition...

    And that is what enables us to be now seen as adopted children of God!
     
  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I disagree. The means, ways, and method of salvation has always been through faith in God's Provision, in His Word, in Christ. When we look at salvation history we can see a progression, but never a different way, means or method of salvation.
     
  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    This thread concerns the righteousness from God. Your unbiblical assertions simply fog the discussion. Limited atonement has been shown, using scripture and not assertion, to be a mistaken view.

    1) Is the righteousness from God the power of God into salvation? Nope, the gospel of Christ is the power of God for salvation. We do not become the gospel.

    2) The Bible does not say born anew believers are "declared perfect" in keeping the Law. It says we undergo the circumcision of Christ, the washing of regeneration, and we become the righteousness of God. We are spiritually altered according to scripture.

    3) The Bible does not say God credits us with Christ's law keeping. It says we become the righteousness of God through the shed blood of Christ.

    4) The Bible does not say we have been adopted, it says we look forward to our adoption at Christ's second coming.
     
    #39 Van, Jul 14, 2015
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  20. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Hebrews 11 supports your view, JonC, the Old Testament saints gained approval, not through the Law, or other works, but by God crediting their faith as righteousness, or in other words, God accepting a persons faith as meeting His standard. Now it is true, they had to wait, in Abraham's bosom, until Christ died, but then entered heaven as holy, blameless and perfect, washed by His blood. And just as Paul taught in Romans 4, we too, as New Covenant saints, enter heaven after God credits our faith as righteousness, and puts us in Christ, where we are made the righteousness of God.
     
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