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Featured What is the Righteousness of God?

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by Van, Jul 8, 2015.

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  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I agree with you on that, it is just that God has chosen to minister that Grace at difereng ways through history, as he did establish the sacrificial system in OT times, NOT to save any one, but that was the proscribed way that sinners could come unto Him to find favor until Jesus and the Cross came, as that all pointed towards Him!
     
    #41 Yeshua1, Jul 16, 2015
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God the Father "credits" to us as sinners the atonement of jesus on the cross for our sins, and that os received thru faith alone in Him and his finished work, and THAT is caused and due to us being already chosen by God in christ!

    Our faith is a gift from god towards us, so we cannot even say that is soely our own, as salvation is from start to finish the work of God!
     
    #42 Yeshua1, Jul 16, 2015
  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I would agree that God has revealed Himself throughout history in different ways, and that His fullest revelation is in the person of His Son, Christ Jesus.
    I have always wondered why we deal so much in fuzzy terms. Having been raised in church, I know what you are pointing towards. My issue is that all of this allegory and illustration, in the end, is not specific enough to deal with the specifics of the “righteousness of God” (or any other soteriological study).

    I think that I understand your view, Yesua1, but if I do then it is (to my understanding) more of a blend of theological summaries and vague illusions than theological conclusions. The reason I say this is the OP is the “righteousness of God,” not the Atonement, election, or sola fide. If you are willing, I have a few questions that may facilitate my understanding of your comments.

    1. If the Law was never intended to save (Romans 8:3), then what is God’s purpose in crediting “to us the perfection of law keeping Jesus did for our stead”?

    2. If our righteousness is God crediting to us Christ’s “perfection of Law keeping in our stead” then would our righteousness not be based on the Law?

    3. If this righteousness is based on the Law (and I am taking it as a divided law – the moral parts) then are you not speaking specifically of a moral righteousness imputed to those being saved?

    4. If this is a moral righteousness, then please explain how the moral actions of another can be justly or even mercifully attributed/imputed to another person.
     
    #43 JonC, Jul 16, 2015
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    2. If our righteousness is God crediting to us Christ’s “perfection of Law keeping in our stead” then would our righteousness not be based on the Law?

    3. If this righteousness is based on the Law (and I am taking it as a divided law – the moral parts) then are you not speaking specifically of a moral righteousness imputed to those being saved?

    4. If this is a moral righteousness, then please explain how the moral actions of another can be justly or even mercifully attributed/imputed to another person.[/QUOTE]

    We will remain as sinners in nature, but God reckons us now as those who have kept and fulfilled his requirements to be just and live as his law demands in order to obtain eternal life!
     
    #44 Yeshua1, Jul 16, 2015
  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Hi Yeshua1, lets go over your assertions.
    1) Does any verse say God credits us with the atonement of Christ? Nope.
    2) We undergo the "washing of regeneration."
    3) We are chosen through faith in the truth.

    So once again, you have simply posted Calvinist doctrine, devoid of any scriptural support.

    The Righteousness of God refers to the righteousness from God that we become in Christ. Hebrews 11 supports that Old Testament saints gained approval, not through the Law, or other works, but by God crediting their faith as righteousness, or in other words, God accepting a persons faith as meeting His standard. Now it is true, they had to wait, in Abraham's bosom, until Christ died, but then entered heaven as holy, blameless and perfect, washed by His blood. And just as Paul taught in Romans 4, we too, as New Covenant saints, enter heaven after God credits our faith as righteousness, and puts us in Christ, where we are made the righteousness of God.
     
    #45 Van, Jul 27, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 27, 2015
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God chooses us before we choose Him though, as we cannot come to Christ unless first the father draws us to jesus, and the holy Spirit enables us to be able to "decide for Christ"

    And again, God owes no sinner any credit, as salvation is the work of His from start to finish, or else why would we be able to take any credit for getting saved, as even the faith needed to do that comes from God!
     
    #46 Yeshua1, Jul 29, 2015
  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    It is pointless to continue the discussion, you simply post Calvinist doctrine, devoid of any scriptural support. You assert the doctrine of total spiritual inability, yet Matthew 23:13 teaches unregenerate mean were actually entering heaven, thus demonstrating total spiritual inability is mistaken doctrine.

    Next, you argue against a strawman of your own creation, i.e. putting our faith in Christ allows us to take credit for getting saved. But no one claims that!!! Our faith, as worthless as it can be, is either credited by God or not as righteousness. God, and God alone turns our worthless filthy rag faith into righteousness. Thus we can take credit for nothing as to meriting salvation.

    I have addressed these two arguments of yours time and time again. It is pointless to continue.
     
    #47 Van, Jul 29, 2015
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Sinners do not have "saving faith" residing within them, as that is the gift of God towards those of us chosen to be saved in jesus...

    And matthew is NOT stating what you are asserting him to be saying!
     
    #48 Yeshua1, Jul 30, 2015
  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    More graffiti, no one said, our faith is "saving faith!!" God crediting our faith as righteousness is a merciful gift from God.
    Why is it you only offer off the shelf arguments that date back 400 years, and are unable to grasp the biblical position before you?

    You can claim Matthew 23:13 does not say unregenerate men were entering heaven till the cows come home. File it with the dozens of verses Calvinism claims do not mean what they say.

    Lets take it by the numbers.
    1) Calvinism claims total spiritual inability, but Matthew 23:13 demonstrates that claim is unbiblical.
    2) Calvinism claims we were chosen unconditionally, but 2 Thessalonians 2:13 demonstrates that claim is unbiblical.
    3) Calvinism claims God does not credit our faith as righteousness, but Romans 4 demonstrates that claim is unbiblical.

    Bottom line, the Righteousness of God is the righteousness from God that we become in Christ.
     
    #49 Van, Jul 30, 2015
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    That is the work of Jesus imputed towards us by God though, and we cannot be in a position to receive even that until God elects us unto eternal life in Christ, and that He enables us then to receive jesus thru faith by the quickening work of the Holy spirit!

    God must grant us a new heart before we can receive Him, as sinners do not give themselves that first!
     
    #50 Yeshua1, Jul 30, 2015
  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    You can post unbiblical assertions till the cows come home. Does not alter the truth from scripture.

    Lets take it by the numbers.
    1) Calvinism claims total spiritual inability, but Matthew 23:13 demonstrates that claim is unbiblical.
    2) Calvinism claims we were chosen unconditionally, but 2 Thessalonians 2:13 demonstrates that claim is unbiblical.
    3) Calvinism claims God does not credit our faith as righteousness, but Romans 4 demonstrates that claim is unbiblical.
     
    #51 Van, Jul 30, 2015
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I am not saying you are wrong, but that does seem to be an awful lot of hoops for God to jump through.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    #52 JonC, Jul 30, 2015
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God is fully able to "jump thru all those hoops" though, for He is the author and finisher of our salvation, as we can do NOTHING to save ourselves...

    God had to do that due to us being totally unabled y the effects of the fall, and in order for God to stay holy and also be just to save any of us...
     
    #53 Yeshua1, Aug 3, 2015
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Isaiah/Peter/Paul/John and most importany;y jesus, refute [oint 1

    IF election is based upn anything other than the Will and purpose of God to save sinners, how can he then base it upon sinners such as ourselves?

    What is imputed and credited towards us then? our faith, or the death of jesus in our stead?
     
    #54 Yeshua1, Aug 3, 2015
  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Point 1, Matthew 23:13 demonstrates that total spiritual inability of all unregenerate people is unbiblical.

    Point 2, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God chose people for salvation through faith in the truth.

    Point 3, God credits our faith in Christ as righteousness, or not, Romans 4:4-5/24.
     
    #55 Van, Aug 4, 2015
  16. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The Righteousness of God refers to the righteousness from God that we become in Christ. Hebrews 11 supports that Old Testament saints gained approval, not through the Law, or other works, but by God crediting their faith as righteousness, or in other words, God accepting a persons faith as meeting His standard. Now it is true, they had to wait, in Abraham's bosom, until Christ died, but then entered heaven as holy, blameless and perfect, washed by His blood. And just as Paul taught in Romans 4, we too, as New Covenant saints, enter heaven after God credits our faith as righteousness, and puts us in Christ, where we are made the righteousness of God.
     
    #56 Van, Aug 5, 2015
  17. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Matthew 23:13. "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those entering to do so."

    I'm sorry to be dense, but would you explain how this verse demonstrates that total spiritual inability of all unregenerate people is unbiblical? Thank you.

    2 Thes. 2:13-14. 'But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, to which He called you by our Gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.'

    What point are you trying to make with this verse?

    Not quite clear. Does He do that or doesn't He?
     
    #57 Martin Marprelate, Aug 5, 2015
  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Personal incredulity does not even address the evidence.

    Matthew 23:13 indicates men who were entering heaven were blocked by false teachers. According to Calvinism, they could not have been entering unless regenerated. But according to Calvinism, if regenerated they could not be blocked. Therefore unregenerate men were entering heaven, demonstrating some spiritual ability. Thus Total Spiritual Inability of all unregenerate people is unbiblical.

    As far as point two, the sentence is clear and for you to ask for a restatement is evasion.

    Ditto for point three. You can claim you do not understand Romans 4:4-5/24 to be saying God credits the faith of some as righteousness, but such a claim seem like evasion.

    Bottom line folks, Calvinism cannot be defended biblically, and so endless quibbling is used to obfuscate the obvious.
     
    #58 Van, Aug 5, 2015
  19. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Incredulity is not the word. Bewilderment is what I was feeling.

    So you believe in the absolute ability of men to keep others out of the kingdom, do you? God is not only unable to bring men into heaven unilaterally, but He is also subject to the whim of other men who are able absolutely to keep believers out of heaven.

    I am just wondering why you would think that any Calvinist would think that God did not choose people for salvation through faith in the truth. I know of know Calvinist who would disagree with that. After all, it's in the Bible, isn't it?

    Again, who disagrees with this? Of course God credits the faith of some as righteousness. In fact He credits the faith of all who trust in Christ as righteousness. But John 6:40 does not contradict John 6:39.

    Well, my friend, you started the quibble (whatever your quibble may be), not me. I think your problem may be that you do not actually know what Calvinism is.
     
    #59 Martin Marprelate, Aug 6, 2015
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  20. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Perhaps I should clarify the teaching on Matthew 23: "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those entering to do so."

    In North Korea, Saudi Arabia and other countries, no one is 'allowed' to become a Christian. Even the possession of a Bible or Christian literature may mean the death sentence. Nevertheless, we know that the number of Christians in these countries is growing. Christ is building His church and the gates of hell are not able to withstand it (Matt.16:18).
    So it was with these scribes and Pharisees; they hated the idea of Free Grace and insisted upon a works salvation. They did not allow the man born blind (John 9) to follow Christ, and when he persisted, they threw him out of the Temple (disfellowshipped him). However, despite all their best efforts, they could not stop the man from believing in Christ (v.38).

    So it is in Matt. 23:13. Pace Van, these religious leaders are not more powerful than God. They do not get to decide who is or isn't saved. They can set up their roadblocks on the way to the kingdom of heaven, but God's elect will find a way through.

    Here is J. C. Ryle on Matt. 23:13. 'The first woe in the list is directed against the systematic opposition of the scribes and Pharisees to the progress of the Gospel. They "shut up the kingdom of heaven:" they would neither go in themselves, nor suffer others to go in; they rejected the warning voice of John the Baptist; they refused to acknowledge Jesus, when He appeared among them as the Messiah; they tried to keep back Jewish enquirers. They would not believe the Gospel themselves, and they did all in their power to prevent others believing it: this was a great sin.'
     
    #60 Martin Marprelate, Aug 6, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 6, 2015
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