Featured what is wrong holding to jesus died for all, but God only gives faith to some?

This is utterly nonsensical in the Calvinist view. How can you expect an unregenerate man to seek God? You believe that an unregenerate man is Totally Unable to seek God because he is enslaved by his sin nature. He will NEVER have a desire to seek God.

You are completely contradicting everything you and other Calvinists have said here. You are now saying that an unregenerate man has the ability to seek God.

Now, truth is, I think you have finally come around to the truth, but this is not Calvinism.

What? You are absolutely contradicting Calvinism again. How can you expect an unregenerate man to believe? He is UNABLE to believe in your view. If faith is a gift from God, then the only way any man will ever be able to believe is if God regenerates him. And again, until he is regenerated it is impossible for him to have the desire to ask God for a new heart.

You are having a terrible night my friend, you are suddenly quite the Arminian.

I am not going to answer the rest, it is all the same. It is nonsensical to expect an unregenerate person to examine himself if Total Depravity is true. In Calvinism the unregenerate man can have no sincere desire for God or spiritual matters.

You guys do not really believe your own doctrine, this post proves it. In reality, you (and Downing) believe unregenerate men indeed have the ability to seek God.

 

DHK

Could you show any calvinist that speaks of Our Holy God uses the language you and wd employ? paste something from a known calvinist...we will wait<

Your twisted caricature is what leads to this...not biblical calvinistic teaching.

That might be your carnal philosphy and theory but it is not manms condition after the fall.

We keep posting it, you keep denying it...

We did it yesterday and the day before:laugh:

wrong DHK, dead wrong.

 

Yes, but the Arminian or non-Cal does not believe a person must be regenerated to believe. They believe in Depravity, but not Inability.

Iconoclast was suggesting that an unregenerate man pray for faith and a new heart. That contradicts everything Calvinism teaches about Total Inability. In Calvinism, the unregenerated cannot will or desire toward God whatsoever, they must always rebel and reject God. In Calvinism an unregenerate man can never pray for real faith or a new heart.

What is truly ironic, is that in Calvinism, only a person who has been regenerated and given faith and a new heart has the ability to pray for faith and a new heart. They suddenly have the ability to pray for what they already have.

So, this Calvinist teacher was contradicting true Calvinist doctrine.

The non-Cal and Arminian believes the unregenerate man can be illuminated and convicted by the word of God and the Spirit and brought to a state of repentance. In non-Cal and Arminian theology, a man is only regenerated AFTER he believes on Christ.

 

Winman

Hello Winman,
The only thing that is utterly nonsensical is that all along the way we have told you and the rest of team anti cal jihad that you do NOT understand what we believe.....you say that you do...but your inability to deal with the actual teachings of godly calvinist teachers is shown here.

Any attempted response to oppose it will expose your defective ideas.I have a new idea.....read the sections that I was lazy on...and cut and paste...

only this time.....post it line by line.....and show how much you actually agree and like it instead....I bet you secretly like it, and probably copied it down for future reference.....it is okay:thumbsup:

I stand by most everything I have studied in that Catechism with Commentary....I have yet to see anyone be able to sustain any sort of biblical correction to it.

If anyone had a substantial objection they could contact DR.Downing by email and ask for clarification.Many godly pastors are busy serving the Lord, in prison ministries,nursing homes,and other gospel outreaches.
I know firsthand that church does all of it,and then some.
Your wrong ideas about Calvinism and it's churches need an upgrade and massive correction:thumbsup:

 

JONc
regeneration and salvation/conversion happen at one point in time.the Spirit may convict and draw a person...but there is one point in time where the Spirit quickens a dead sinner to life. That is a smokescreen and rabbit trail brought up by those who oppose grace,

 

Why don't we just believe this.

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 2 Cor 5:19

Why did I post that above?



Because if faith is something inherent from us that above is impossible.

If faith is of God and what God has done then that above is no longer impossible.

The faith/faithfulness of God was in having Son born of woman, that Son being obedient unto death, and the one generating him in the woman giving him life again from death.

That is what makes the reconciling possible. That is what, "in Christ," means.

 

The reason that Jesus gave the rich young ruler that command was to demonstrate to him that he had lied when he said, "All these have I kept from my youth up." (the law or Ten Commandments). He had not kept the law and Jesus demonstrated that by giving him this command, for then what did he do? He demonstrated his covetousness. He coveted his riches more than his desire for Christ or eternal life (which he originally expressed).

Yes and no.
First, Christ never gave up his deity. He always was God and always will be God.
Second, the death of Christ was on his own terms. As he told the Pharisees: "I lay my life down; I take it up again." The Father didn't force him; neither was He simply a pawn in the Father's hand. Christ was and is God. God is not split up. The triune Godhead works in unity, together.

Perhaps you didn't mean it, but it sounds like quite a heretical statement.
Titus 3:5 speaks of regeneration, a reference to salvation.
Jesus was not a sinner and did not need to be saved.
He did not need the "washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit."

You are confused. Jesus said to his disciples (whom he was comforting at the time), to have faith in God. That has absolutely nothing to do with the Holy Spirit being "shed forth." There is no connection. In fact the Spirit didn't even come until Pentecost. There is a complete disconnect here--a twisting of Scripture.

Can you? Try it. See if it works. Please tell me if you ever see a mountain fall into the sea by your power or your faith in God. I would really like to know about that.

 

Eph.2:8,9 says nothing about faith being a gift of God. Take a grammar lesson.

 

You tell me that I am wrong when I say everyone has faith.
.

Now you have contradicted yourself (or changed your mind), for you now agree with me--everyone has faith. Whether it is human trust, false faith (as you describe it, it is still faith. I have been saying that for years. The nature of faith doesn't change. It is confidence, trust.
All faith is the same. Faith is faith. It is the object of faith that is different.
Saving faith, if that is what you prefer to call it, has as its object Christ.
Islamic faith has as its object Allah, and therefore does not save.
The rich young ruler put his faith in his riches.
Faith is faith; confidence, trust.
The nature of faith does not change. What is important is the object of one's faith. To be saved on must have Christ as the object of their faith.

No it isn't. Every person has faith. The object of one's faith must be Christ in order to be saved. The command is simply to believe, not believe with God's faith. That is what you are suggesting by suggesting that God gives you the faith to believe.

 

Another demeaning response that is not necessary especially for a moderator. Making the point that the verse sayw nothing about being a gift of God is sufficient. The grammar lesson comment shows your mindset and motivation.

 

The reason I believe you to be correct is Romans that we all know, that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. I do have one question though. When we say "innate faith", do you think that folks are referring to the faith like mentioned in Romans 1 and 2, faith enough to know there is a God but short of the Gospel? Then the "saving faith" that comes by hearing that leads to salvation. Or do you think them both to be the same?

LOL this is not to set you up for a trick question, just wanted to be sure I understood you.

 

Yes, everyone has faith. Even animals have faith. I have been ridiculed for saying that, when Jesus himself confirms this in the scriptures.

Jhn 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

I have read that it is a fact that a shepherd can call his sheep and they will follow him, but they will flee from strangers. This is faith, this is trust. They trust their shepherd, but mistrust strangers. Many animals are mistrustful of strangers.

Calvinism tries to make faith into a mystery to support their false teaching that faith in Christ is a gift from God, when faith is innate in man and even animals too.

When the scriptures say not all men have faith, this is simply speaking of evil men who choose not to believe in God. It is a willing turning away from God.

DHK has it correct, it is the object of our faith that matters. This passage of scripture clearly shows that, the sheep trust their own shepherd, while they do not trust another and flee from him in fear.

 

Yet some Calvinists like R.C. Sproul believe a person can be regenerated for years, even decades before believing on Jesus. This would be a person who is both spiritually alive and spiritually dead in sins for years!

So, don't tell me what Calvinists believe, no two Calvinists believe the same thing. you have Supralapsarians, verses Infralapsarians, you have "moderate" Calvinists and "hyper" Calvinists, you have 5 point Calvinists, 4 point Calvinists... There are probably dozens of different kinds of Calvinists.

In Calvinism, the unregenerate is unable to have a will or desire toward God, so it is nonsensical to advise an unregenerate person to pray to God for a new heart. He won't listen, in fact, in your system he CANNOT listen.

You were simply caught completely contradicting yourself and won't admit it. I am not surprised.

 

Not condoning that behavior, but you can only take so much of iconoclasts equally demeaning posts.

 

SN

Yes....I believe there is a non saving "faith" that natural men possess.

I can agree with DHK also that the OBJECT of faith is vital. This is not at issue...DHK has this 100% correct.

The issue comes from His denial of the Spirit's work in salvation, in granting repentance,{a change of mind} belief,{a change of belief}and saving faith,
{a faith that issues from being brought from death to life at the moment of regeneration,}a new heart, {also the gift of the Spirit}.....

A mere natural trust does not issue from natural men who are not subject to the word of God..

the other day...I did not get back to it...but DHK in trying to support his position appealed to romans 1 wrongly....he said that men - hold the truth I believe he highlighted it...

This is a massive error....the passage actually teaches the direct opposite..

men willing suppress the truth in unrighteous...they actual hold it down in denial....

18 for revealed is the wrath of God from heaven upon all impiety and unrighteousness of men, holding down the truth in unrighteousness.

18 For God’s [holy] wrath and indignation are revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who in their wickedness repress and hinder the truth and make it inoperative

The greek of eph 2;8-9 is tricky, but it supports faith as the gift of God as part of the salvation.....I do not have a greek font or I could post that...

 

I don't mean faith as in "mental assent." I believe Nero existed at the time of Paul. That is just head knowledge, an accumulation of facts.
Faith is defined as confidence or trust.
Jesus used children to define faith. "Except you be as little children you cannot enter into the kingdom of God." He was speaking of faith.
What is a child like? When my children were you--like a year old--They would put unwavering confidence in me. They would jump from a high ledge into my outstretched arms knowing full well that I would catch them. That is faith in my word, and in me. It is the confidence that what I had promised them I would do.

Romans 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
--This is a good definition of faith; "being fully persuaded that what God had promised God would do." Faith is confidence, trust. Biblical or "saving faith" if you like to use that term, is confidence in God or His promises that He will do what he has promised.
Most people don't want to take it out of that context.
Faith is innate, as it is shown in children in the example I have given you or that Jesus gave to us.
I have confidence IN my car, that when I use my remote car starter, it will start. Now if it does not start it is not my faith that has failed me, it is my realization that both the starter and the car has been made by fallible man who makes fallible things. But God is infallible, has given us an infallible Book, and never fails.

 

The issue comes from His denial of the Spirit's work in salvation, in granting repentance,{a change of mind} belief,{a change of belief}and saving faith, [/quote]
This is false. I do not deny the Spirit's work in salvation. I deny that God gives faith to whom God defines as:
a child of the devil, a child of wrath, a child of disobedience, one who works the works of Satan, a dog who goes back to his vomit, an unclean thing, one whose works are as filthy rags, vile, wicked, evil, unrighteous, unholy, condemned to an eternity in hell, will be thrown in the lake of fire where the worm dies not and the fire is not quenched.
And you thing God gives spiritual gifts and the fruit of the Spirit to such people. I refuse to believe such garbage. You are so devoted to the theology of a man that you won't open your eyes to what the Bible has to say about "faith."

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Some people hear the word of God all their lives. They simply reject it, as they reject the Savior. The rejection has nothing to do with faith; but rather a depraved heart and rebellion against God.
Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft.

Your definition falls short.

That is not true. They have it. They own it. They posses it. And yet they reject it.

Every man who rejects the truth of God suppresses it in their conscience mind. They put it away. This is nothing different than what I have already said. Their conscience becomes seared as a hot iron because of a continual rejection or suppression of God's truth. The two words are almost synonymous in this context. They still HAVE the truth.

And you are wrong. The topic is salvation throughout the entire passage. You can't force the Greek to say something it doesn't say. Greek scholars say the opposite of what you conclude also. What happens here is this. You say here is what the passage MUST say in order to fit with my conclusion, my theology. Therefore you will go and find someone who knows a little Greek to agree with you. It is dishonest scholarship, if scholarship at all.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
--In a nutshell the basic verb and subject of these two verses are "you are saved. Consider the rest in relation to "you are saved," or "salvation."

How are you saved--by grace.
The means by which you saved--by faith.
Salvation is not of yourself.
Salvation is the gift of God.
Salvation is not of works.
Salvation cannot be boasted of.

Salvation is the topic here all the way through. Paul knows his grammar, and does not change the grammar half way through the statement just to appease Mr. Calvin and his co-horts.

 

Winman

Give proof and context of this statement....you reading comprehension is suspect.

Someone has to because you lie about them,and do not understand at all.

I believe many exact things that most calvinists believe.No too people believe the same on things in general>you show you have an agenda, and your harsh treatment of Cals is your norm.

This says nothing...people learn and grow at different rates.

No..it is biblical

Not at all...instead your agenda and willful ignorance is exposed......you still are unable to comprehend it...you are too busy creating the strawman.