What is your Worldview?

But it still is an "ism". I always found it funny hopw that one was always left out of conservative writings such as "Isms and Ologies", which seems to think an "ism" is only the system we don't like.

They are actually considered on the far right. (As has been pointed out, the spectrume is more a circle, and the second factor of authoritarian vs. libertarian is what makes them so much like leftist dictators).

He mentioned France. People are not enslaved there. And capitalism enslaves people in a different way; one which defines "freedom" in terms of money and trinkets, which people then become hooked to, not realizing they're hooked. (Which IMO, is why it has succedded so well, not because it's more godly).

 

I'm not opposed to capitalism because it is the most successful economic system for delivering affordable goods and services to the largest number of people. The reason other economic systems don't work as efficiently is because they don't take into account the fallen sinful nature of humanity. Capitalism is usually driven by greed, but is somewhat naturally moderated by "free market" competition that forces the sellers of goods and services to work toward pleasing their customers to maintain their market share.

That's why, in my opinion, governments must exercise control over large businesses to prevent monopolies (or at least heavily regulate them) to prevent businesses from taking unfair advantage of consumers.

 

Ummmm.... right....you have very poor understanding of the concept of these political ideologies. BTW, you do not have to be an athiest in order to be a socialist or be a Christian to be a capitalist. What a stereotypical load of nonsense.

:laugh: So now you are not only mistakenly equating socialism with communism, but also fascism. Good one.....

As for socialist nations look at most of Europe and you'll get a pretty good idea.

It's not as simple as that and you know it. Under capitalism the corporation is the one calling the shots, not the individual man. In a true capitalist society there would be absolutely no limitations on business of any kind. Societies cannot sustain themselves, nor thrive under a true capitalist society. It is necessary for the government to protect it's people, especially by preventing monopolies and establishing safety standards. Under a socialized nation the governments works harder to protect the rights of the individual citizen and not the almighty mnc.

Now where in the world is that found in the Bible? Oh, that's right, it's not. Jesus said pay your taxes, not the power to tax is the power to destroy. It was not theft then and it is not theft now. Like it or not taxes are necessary in any civilized nation, especially one active in the global economy. Tell me this do you drive on any roads or streets? Do you walk on a sidewalk? What about government workers, do you think they should be paid? If there were no taxes the world we live in would not be functional. I guess it's only those taxes that are going to the underserving poor by way of social programs you have a problem with. What a strange concept for a Christian worldview I would think. It might not be the most efficient, but to moan and wine about your "unfair" taxes, (not biblical by the way), while there are people truly struggling out there seems to reek of misplaced priority. You should be thankful that someone is working to help these people, because it is certainly not the majority of churches I see out there today.....

There a lot of books I would recommend for your reading pleasure, but before I list them, maybe you should read a high school level civics book. It is easier to understand the books, even political journals, I would recommend if you have a basic understanding of the different political ideologies and what they actually entail. FTR, I have read Bastiat, doesn't mean I have to agree with him.

The federal government is responsible for whatever they deem is necessary and proper for the well being of this country. Try looking at Article I sec.8 again. As for the Bible, please give the chapter and verse where it outlines the duties of a secular government. By all means enlighten me.

The government is free to spend tax money on whatever they deem necessary, and it still does not negate the church's or Christian's moral resopnsibility. Government social programs do not take away your ability to help the poor. That's just a cop out excuse, imo. As for the church providing all the social programs that would be necessary to help the poor and desitute in this country, how exactly do you propose that would work? It in no way would be efficient, and there would certainly be too many people left to fall between the cracks.

I strongly agreed as well, so your point? When are we going to get to the Biblical stuff? I already know we have differing political worldviews, but you have yet to show me in any way, how I do not have a biblical worldview......

 

So the National Socialist Workers Party were not socialist? Anyone tell them?

There is more than one nation in Europe. Which do you believe is the ideal Christian Socialist state?

Now who's confused?

"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini​

True capitalism is not monopolism and yes protecting against monopolies would be an appropriate role of civil gov't.

"The Power to tax involves the Power to destroy." - Chief Justice John Marshall​

25He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?

26Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free." - Matthew 17:25-26​

Turns out I do and they are paid for with gas taxes which I am not opposed to.

I did once.

I believe most of them should be fired and their departments dissolved. The remaining ones should be paid a nominal fee for their "service" to our country.

I'm not advocating for no taxes. However, 48-52% taxation does not make a people free, it makes them 48-52% slave. This is not the system this country was founded on, it is socialism. You like it, I don't.

"Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver." - 2 Corinthians 9:7​

I am in favor of charity and caring for the needy. However, this is something that we should be able to do of choice, not of necessity.

Why would the church need to help these people when there are all these government programs to take care of them?

I believe this will be our last dialogue on this issue as your comments seem to have become quite mean-spirited.

For whatever they deem necessary? Are they God? The Federal Gov't was given enumerated powers not innumerable.

Your opinion is ignorant. When the government takes 50% and I give 10% to the church, I have 40% left to house, clothe and feed a family. It's hard to help the poor when you become one of them. There's only so much blood you can squeeze from a turnip.

And government is efficient and none fall between the cracks.

Take care.

 

Sorry you feel the need to bow out. I was not trying to be mean, even I do get frustrated at times. Honestly, I am sorry.

I guess I am. Are you denying that Hitler and Mussolini were fascists? Seriously? Do you really believe socialism, communism, and fascism are the same?

Under a true capitalist ideological society there are absolutely NO appropriate roles of government concerning the economy. Look it up.

This is not a biblical mandate for secular governments. Why would Jesus say to pay your taxes if taxes were not biblical? For that matter, since it is only certain taxes you have a problem with, where EXACTLY does it say that governments CANNOT use tax revenue for social programs? I never said that CJ Marshall did not say the power to tax was the power to destroy. I said Jesus did not say it.

Well considering our country was founded on freedom of thought, oh well we'll have to agree to dsagree. Besides we are not living in the past. The founding fathers could have NEVER imagained 1. an industrialized nation existing within 2. a global economy with 3. a growing number of working class poor not able or even capable eeking out a subsistence living because 4. they live in major metropolitan areas.

And the majority of your taxes do not even go towards means-based assistance. The Federal outlays for these programs is about 2% on average. Seems your anger over your tax burden is again misplaced. If you were really concerned about the tax burden why not petition the incompetents in Washington to stop sending ridiculous amounts of money to their pork projects. If we got rid of half of that mess we could still have means based assistance programs and nowhere near the current tax burden.

Wow! What do you think the government does, sends them tons of cash so they can sit and eat bonbons all day? I really hope you don't mean this.

I'm sorry you feel I am mean spirited, that was not my intent. Frankly I am frustrated that you continually claim I do not have biblical worldview, in effect questioning my Christianity, yet you cannot even use the correct political terms. You have lumped socialism, communism, and now fascism together, and have not even acknowledged the fact that myself, and others have pointed out this is incorrect.

Yes, for whatever they deem necessary. It has nothing to do with playing God, it has everything to do with Article I section 8 of the Constitution. It's literally called the necessary and proper clause.

First, whose being mean spirited? I would say your opinion is ignorant, but I won't. I might not agree with it, but it's not ignorant. Secondly, there is more to helping the poor than handing out money. Are you really making that argument, because I am sure that answer will not suffice on judgement day. "Sorry God I couldn't help the poor, I had to pay taxes."

(Note: this is a general statement, I am not hinting that you do not help the poor)

No, but that is an entirely different argument. The current means-based assistance programs need an entire overhaul, but they certainly do not need to be repealed altogether. Do you really truly and honestly believe that churches alone could efficiently do this for the poor? These same churches that are continually bickering with each other over denominational differences could actually band together, put all their differences aside, in order to assist the poor and destitute in this country? Call me cynical, but I don't see this ever happening.

 

Forgiven...moving on.

Are you denying that they were socialists? Seriously?

Baskin and Robbins has 31 flavors, each taste different but they're all ice cream.

Well, I'm not advocating for your definition of true capitalism. I am advocating for a Constitutional Republic with a free market system of trade.

The scripture shows that it is the free children of the kings that pay no tribute but the children that are in bondage do. Thus, this idea that we are a free people in a free nation is in error. Jesus says to give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, my time and my possessions are not Caesar's and there is no law (and I no you disagree) that says I am required to pay a federal "income" tax from my labor and yet by the force of a gun and the threat of a raid, the citizens of America are required to do so contrary to the rule of law.

If those things are failing us then we should pitch them in favor of the old paths. Forget industrialization and return to agrarianism. Forget globalism and return to national sovereignty. Regardless, of those matters the Constitution can and should apply to a citizen in 2007 the same way it did in 1807.

Not one cent of a citizen's "income" tax goes to any service or product. It all goes to pay down interest on our debt. Governmental services are provided by creating new debt and expecting future generations to pay more and more in taxation to pay on that interest. I am really concerned about our tax burden and the underlying root of this issue which is the Federal Reserve. Thus, I will support candidates that will work towards eliminating this abomination and right now I only know of one.

No. I believe the government takes the taxes to pay interest on past debts, creates new debt to pay for government overhead and then doles out money so people can sit and eat bonbons all day

I'll acknowledge that we have differing definitions of these terms and would suggest to you that the terms are not all that relevant as they are blended terms and blended systems. The socialists of Germany hated the communists in Russia, yet the communists in Russia were made up of "Socialist Republics". All this was Hegelianism used to pit these systems against each other so the powers that be could get their preferred system of gov't known as Democratic Socialism which is the same system they desire for the entirety of the world. However, this once Christian nation was founded neither on Democracy nor Socialism.

If your interpretation is correct, then don't you think they wasted a whole lot of energy and paper writing anything that followed it? Wouldn't it be a shorter, more concise document if they just said, "We the people have decided that the government can do anything they want."?

Your original statement was...

It is not a cop out excuse. When the government decides to be the provider of social programs and takes away the wealth of the people to do this, then they are replacing the church and replacing individual benevolence in the process. This is why Europe has such a low level of giving. They have an expectation that the government will take care of the poor as they are living in socialist systems.

Why do you presume it is necessary for these churches to band together? The model should be the local New Testament church being charitable to its local community. Things don't need to always be turned into some huge program.

 

True, but many Christian supporters of this system also seem to forget the fallen sinful nature of humanity when they come up with all this idealism (such as we see right here) regarding the market system. So they then begin postulating a "Once Christian nation" that was degraded by all these outside forces (socialism, etc), when the nation always consisted of beings no less human, and sinful than anyone else.

 

74% for me.

 

I didn't understand why it asked about W being president. Because of so much controversy in 00 & 04?

 

80% here. 136 of 170