What must it be like -- to be wrong on a doctrinal POV?

Bob what was a very interesting post has now turned into a very comical post. And I loved your line about how you agreed with "his interpretation." See I think that again is the problem. Steaver has "his" interpretation of the Scripture and you are agreeing with it.

However it is in stark contrast to the Scripture's intepretation of itself. You all keep claiming that Matthew 7 is an eternal salvation context yet neither of you provide an ounce of evidence to back that up. So all you have done is taken a text out of its context to prove "your" intepretation of Scripture.

Neither Matthew 7 nor Matthew 18 do any damage to the once saved always saved Scriptural doctrine.

There really is only one verse that is needed (although there are plenty of others) to show that Scripture supports unconditional security and that's Ephesians 2:8-9, which have NEVER been able to deal with.

But it doesn't matter what Scriptures are brought up that show you are clearly in err, because you have made up your mind for whatever reason that you are correct with no possibility of error. And the same could be said of Steaver. That's why this post has become pointless. It has moved away from an interesting topic of why people hold on to errant views to a discussion of a couple of doctrines that we aren't going to agree on that have been talked about several times before.

So to actually get back to the OP tell us why "you" hold on to positions that are incorrect? Are you a teacher within your church and would have to admit to a mistake? Would it be that if you actually embraced unconditional security you would get kicked out of your church? Lose some friends? What's keeping you attached to these errant doctrines?

 

Maybe I will scramble and maybe I will have to admit he has a point. But I can tell you this much for sure. Any pointed question that he ask of me I will give a clear answer. I am not afraid of defending (let's start speaking like Jump so as not to side track the debate) Scriptures interpretation of the text in focus. With scripture as my resource along with the Holy Spirit's guidence through prayer I will answer any question he may have concerning scriptures position on any subject. (is that better?)

Now that I got the language down pat, Jump will not have to reiterate the me and my positions controversy anymore. I will from here out chose my words carefully on positions.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

God bless you brother. I have found myself at times so busy that I could not get to the board for a week or more. I apprecieate your willingness to respond when possible. Maybe I should not have lumped you in with Jump for an unwillingness to answer my last post on Jesus' word "never" = "zero works". You really haven't had much to say about the subject so far. My appologies.

God Bless! :wavey:

 

How many times do you need it answered Steaver? This is as silly as your wanting more than one text that a saved person can go a lifetime and produce nothing but lawlessness.

How many times does it take? I've already answered you twice? Is twice not sufficient? Would a third time be the charmer?

 

In order to avoid any side issues with how we tend to say things I have edited my previous post that I wanted Hope and Jump to respond to. I hope I have taken out any obsticals that would prevent my final analysis from being answered by Jump.

Ok brothers, you have had some time to vent and now let's get back to the text at hand.

Hope seems to support your views of scripture's position Jump so I would invite him to respond as well.

Let's review briefly what we have already covered.

Here is the verse from the passage in question.....

Mat 7:23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The word Jesus spoke "I never knew you" is the center of the debate.

My view of scripture's position is that Jesus is refering to never knowing them spiritually through rebirth. I hold this view of scriptures position because although Jesus "knows" all men in the God knows all sense, He does not live within all men through rebirth and this is a very personal "knowing" and only this kind of relationship can produce worthy works for Jesus Christ. All other works performed as worship to the Lord are as dung in the eyes of God if they are not done according to God's rules which are through regeneration in Christ.

Jump's view of scripture's position is that Jesus' word "I never knew you" is not refering to having not been born of God but is refering to Jesus not knowing them by their works. He believes that scripture's position of the "never knew you" is only in relationship to the works they had performed. Jump believes scripture's position is these people are saved but their works are found to be "iniquity" and they are sent to outerdarkness for 1000 years as disobedient children of God, not lost to hell.

I challenged Jump on this. I said but Jesus said "never" knew you. I said, would this not then mean that a born of God, child of God could be found with not even one worthy work to his name? Can this really be possible?

Jump produced a parable that he believed scripture's position proved that a born again child of God could have not performed even one worthy work for the Lord.

Of course I challenged him on this, even appealing to the Spirit alone that (imho) I believe must be telling Jump that this just isn't possible, but he held his ground and is certain that scripture's position is that a true believer can be a true slothful servant not having even one worthy work to his credit. Ever!

I challenged him with, but Jesus said "never", and that if this was as he said about works, then this person must have not done even one worthy work as a born of God believer. I found this an impossibility, but he did not and found a parable which he believes scripture's position supports the view that this is possible and therefore "never" having a worthy work fits his view of scripture's position of Jesus' word "I never knew you".

Ok, let's move on then. Jump has set his heart to believe all that I have presented here above about his view of scripture's position.

Let's take it from there then. Let's play this out with Jump's view of scripture's position of scripture.

Next question for Jump and Hope. You guys have already established that your view of scripture's explanation for Jesus's word "never" is that there will be some saved people that will not have even one worthy work. Thus explaining the word "never" in "I never knew you", since this is focused on works alone according to your view of scripture's position.

Therefore, from that one MUST CONCLUDE that Matt 7 is speaking exclusively to those saved Christians who have not performed even one worthy work for their Lord. Those who have, at the least, one worthy work are not in focus here because you and Hope's view of scripture's position on Jesus' word "never" would indeed exclude all saved except those who have zero works.

I just want to get you guys on the record that you do understand that your view of scripture's position about Jesus' word "never" and your belief of scripture's position that Jesus said this because some saved will have zero works does then exclude all the saved that have one or more worthy work(s).

After confirmation that you guys do see this view of scripture's position limits the passage to those Jesus "never knew" = "zero works" , we can move on.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

Here is the post I am looking for a response from you on........I will shorten it.....

Show me the post where you responded to this post.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

I guess twice wasn't good enough . . . silly me.

 

Brother, please. How is anyone going to trust learning anything from you if you continue this dodge ball?

Most people who really did give an answer to a post come right out with it. They re-post the answer so it is made clear.

Why do you want to look this way to the board?

 

See this is just childish mentality. You try to paint me to be the bad guy because you don't want to go back and do a little digging. I've answered your question not once, but twice.

If you want to know the answer go search for it yourself. Quit trying to bad mouth me because I won't do "your" work for you. I've already answered your question. Why is it my fault that you missed it and don't want to take the time to go search for it.

Give me a break.

 

Matt 7 is indicitive of many religious folks today. They are lost and think they are saved. They are on the broad way and think they are on the narrow way. They are false teachers and think they are right. No doubt that is descriptive of some who will read this.

This is not a "few" but MANY! Not isolated cases, but MANY!!! Most folks are lost.

What is their problem? They didn't do what God said? Oh, they believed in Jesus and called him Lord. The believed in Jesus, worked for him, were obviously sincere, yet condemned because they didn't do what God said. This creates a problem that must be explained away to some who hold to man made doctrines.

If you hear the words of Jesus and do them, you will be wise, having your house built upon a rock, in the narrow way, and a teacher of truth, otherwise, you are foolish, a false teacher, and on your way to hearing those dreadful words, "Depart from me, workers of iniquity".

How could Mark 16:16 be made any more plain, yet be rejected by so many as unnecessary, unessential, and irrelevant?

I know Jesus said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" and on the day of Pentecost, the first instructions to those believers who were cut to the heart was "repent and be baptized....for the remission of sins", but it doesn't really mean that. I'm sure you can rationalize it so that these verses don't mean what they say. Serve God any way you want. He will accept that, won't he. Build your house where ever you want. No, if you build on the sand, you will not be accepted. Building requires dilligence and work. You believe you are doing something good, else you would not be expending the effort and resources to build.

How could the way be any broader than all you have to do is believe, then no matter what, you can't lose your salvation. There is certainly nothing narrow about that! Those who believe that believe something contrary to what Jesus said in Mark 16. That is why He never knew them, they rejected what he said and built their house on the sand.

Few there be that find the narrow way.

 

I will ask you some questions.

How many ways has mankind come up with so far to get to eternal life? Can you count them all on two hands? More than a hundred? Two hundred? Think of all the cilvilizations which has existed and all of their religious dogmas that they have dreamed up to get to eternal life. Think of all of the religions in the world presently that have a different set of beliefs to get to eternal life.

Jesus said "One Way". "Believe". Now is that not a VERY NARROW WAY?

Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Are two ways more narrow than one? Faith PLUS works, PLUS good deeds, PLUS commandment keeping?

Only believe is not "broad" by any stretch of the imagination. It is VERY narrow and that is why only a few can accept that it would be so simple as to have faith in Jesus Christ's finished work on our behalf. They, to their demise, will try to claim many wonderful works, but Christ will say "I never knew you". They tried to get in another way than the narrow way which is faith plus nothing.

If one is working to get eternal life then that person shows lack of faith in Christ. ANY faith! If one is working and obeying out of love, out of a new heart given them through Christ, not believing it has any justification for eternal life, but understanding that their salvation is in faith apart from works, then this person will be given entrance into eternal life. Those who insist on works are showing their lack of faith in Christ to save them. They are showing that they do not trust Christ's way but would rather work to get their justification for eternal life.

Jesus said no! No more works! Believe on me and thou shalt be saved! Add your filthy rag works to my precious sacrifice and I will profess "I never knew you".

Only believe is VERY narrow indeed!!!

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

Ok, I will bring forward your replies since I first asked and we will see what you said.

My original inquirey........

Nothing there saying you confirm or reject your explanation of Jesus' word "never knew" = "zero works" must lead to only those Christians having zero works can be in focus in the text, but that was in response to the first part of my original post. I just want to post everything you have posted so you can't say I let anything out.

I will do this one post at a time for space reasons.........

 

My original inquirey........

Quote:
(steaver...posted page 8, post 87).....Next question for Jump and Hope. You guys have already established that your explanation for Jesus's word "never" is that there will be some saved people that will not have even one worthy work. Thus explaining the word "never" in "I never knew you", since this is focused on works alone according to your view.

Therefore, from that one MUST CONCLUDE that Matt 7 is speaking exclusively to those saved Christians who have not performed even one worthy work for their Lord. Those who have at the least one worthy work are not in focus here because you and Hope's position on Jesus' word "never" would indeed exclude all saved except those who have zero works.

I just want to get you guys on the record that you do understand that your view about Jesus' word "never" and your belief that Jesus said this because some saved will have zero works does then exclude all the saved that have one or more worthy work(s).

After confirmation that you guys do see this limits the passage to those Jesus "never knew" = "zero works" , we can move on.

God Bless! :thumbs:

Ok, here you say you not sure what point I was trying to reach. Of course that is not an answer to my inquirey but it is as close as you came to acknowledging that I did have a point. I don't think my post was confusing. If you need clarification on something then just ask me what part of what I said you are not sure of and I will clear it up. I certainly do not want you answering if you are not sure of the question.

Re-read what I posted and tell me what you do not understand and I will help, but let's not brush it away and declare that it was answered. Ok?

Let me run through your other post to make certain another answer wasn't given and then we can get back to this "not sure" response and maybe I can somehow ask it in another way that is understandable.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

My original inquirey........

Quote:
(steaver...posted page 8, post 87).....Next question for Jump and Hope. You guys have already established that your explanation for Jesus's word "never" is that there will be some saved people that will not have even one worthy work. Thus explaining the word "never" in "I never knew you", since this is focused on works alone according to your view.

Therefore, from that one MUST CONCLUDE that Matt 7 is speaking exclusively to those saved Christians who have not performed even one worthy work for their Lord. Those who have at the least one worthy work are not in focus here because you and Hope's position on Jesus' word "never" would indeed exclude all saved except those who have zero works.

I just want to get you guys on the record that you do understand that your view about Jesus' word "never" and your belief that Jesus said this because some saved will have zero works does then exclude all the saved that have one or more worthy work(s).

After confirmation that you guys do see this limits the passage to those Jesus "never knew" = "zero works" , we can move on.

God Bless! :thumbs:

Nothing there saying you confirm or reject your explanation of Jesus' word "never knew" = "zero works" must lead to only those Christians having zero works can be in focus in the text, but that was response to Bob even though I was mentioned........

 

My original inquirey........

Quote:
(steaver...posted page 8, post 87).....Next question for Jump and Hope. You guys have already established that your explanation for Jesus's word "never" is that there will be some saved people that will not have even one worthy work. Thus explaining the word "never" in "I never knew you", since this is focused on works alone according to your view.

Therefore, from that one MUST CONCLUDE that Matt 7 is speaking exclusively to those saved Christians who have not performed even one worthy work for their Lord. Those who have at the least one worthy work are not in focus here because you and Hope's position on Jesus' word "never" would indeed exclude all saved except those who have zero works.

I just want to get you guys on the record that you do understand that your view about Jesus' word "never" and your belief that Jesus said this because some saved will have zero works does then exclude all the saved that have one or more worthy work(s).

After confirmation that you guys do see this limits the passage to those Jesus "never knew" = "zero works" , we can move on.

God Bless! :thumbs:

Still no answer saying you confirm or reject your explanation of Jesus' word "never knew" = "zero works" must lead to only those Christians having zero works can be in focus in the text, but i do see again a plea that you do not understand what confirmation I am looking for. So I think we need to re-read my inquirey and ask some questions about it so I can clarify my point and we can get an answer from you.

Maybe I have been thinking wrongly of you and you really are not trying to not answer but just do not understand the question. So let me look at the rest of your post and then we can get back to this task of having my point clarified that you may respond either a yes or a no.

God Bless!

 

:applause:
Hit it right on the head. Isn't it nice to think one is on the narrow way compared to others, defined by a set of works--- just like all the other sects and religions doing it; far outnumbering those with a simple trust in Christ.

 

Ok, there is nothing else that you have posted that deals with my inquirey except the fact that you say it has already been answered. So what I see is the prblem is that you do not understand my inquirey and that is perfectly understandable so I will try to say it some other way. Here is my original inquirey once again and then I will try to say it some other way. But if you do not understand then please point out what is the confusion and I will attempt to clear it up........

Ok, let me try again. I am reviewing our deliberation about Jesus' word "I never knew you".

You said that works is the focus of Jesus's word "I never knew you". Meaning Jesus never knew them by worthy works.

I said, but Jesus said "never" and that would mean that these Christians would have had to live their lives without even one worthy work in order for Jesus to use the word "never" in "I never knew you".

This would mean that Jesus NEVER knew them by any worthy works that they had done. They have ZERO worthy works. If they had a few worthy works Jesus could not truthfully say that He NEVER knew them by their works so they must have ZERO worthy works.

You defended this as correct and said, yes there will be Christians without even one worthy work and in so explaining Jesus' word "never" in the text.

Remember I am summarizing here so do not go off on a "that is not what I said tangent". If I am misunderstanding what you said then correct me and we can have a civil discussion on this.

Now, what my next inquirey is, is this...

Since your explanation of Jesus' word "never" is because there will be Christians standing there without even one worthy work, then this can only lead to the conclusion that Jesus is speaking exclusively TO those Chrsitians who are found to have ZERO works when He says "I never knew you".

Do you confirm this or reject this? If reject, then please elaborate as to why and if you still do not understand then please point out where and let me try again.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

I have no problem with your explanation of this particular text.

 

14 Remind them of these things[/b], and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers.


You've all been reminded.