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What Really Happened?

Discussion in 'Creation vs. Evolution' started by Aaron, Jun 18, 2019.

  1. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Because there is no "All Christian General Discussion" forum, I posted this here.

    Joshua 10:13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
    Elsewhere, Jesus said His Father "maketh His sun to rise." But we're told that's not what in reality happens. What happens in reality is that the earth rotates.

    So, in the Joshua passage above, what happened in reality? (And isn't it interesting that it is also said that the moon, which we're all agreed upon does actually move around the earth, stood still too?)
     
  2. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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  3. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    It would seem God froze the entire universe in place.
     
  4. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    I have wondered. The reason is the term has been associated with ANE omens. It could mean the sun and moon were in a paticular place in the sky signifying God's favor.

    The benefit to this idea is it woukd be meaningful to the audience contemporary to the narrative. The negative aspect is it would not be meaningful to a later audience.
     
  5. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Are we being given a faithful account? If Christ said the sun rises when the reality is something different, and if we're told the sun stood still, when the reality is something different, can God be said to be giving us a faithful account?

    And why would we think the moon actually stood still, instead of it being something different?
     
  6. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    I think we are given a faithful account. The issue is not in the giving but in the receiving.

    Today we speak of a sunrise. Should this term, in the future, become archaic and people think it was a misunderstanding of nature then the issue would be theirs and not ours.
     
  7. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Rising, setting and even North, South, East and West are man made conventions relative to another object which appears to be stable. The scripture allows and even uses these man made conventions.

    So what?
     
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  8. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    But of course the sun didn't really stand still.

    It's phenomenological language, the language of observation.
    Think of this, if the sun stood still it would have been the earth that did not move.

    The Hebrews of this age told time by the sun and moon, they did not have time keeping instruments in that period of time.
    And they didn't have a times-keeper in the army to insure that the sun continued moving as predicted.

    This is like the miracle of the resurrection of our Lord, it defies scientific explanation, there's just not enough information provided. It simply happened as it did.
    God assigned each heavenly body its place and function (Genesis 1:6), on this day God controlled time which allowed Israel to defeat its enemies.

    I personally imagine Joshua, after an exhausting day of fighting the enemy, looking down at his Casio, knocking it with his fingers a few times, then exclaiming, "I'm dog tired, I must have forgotten to wind my watch. This day seems like it will never end. [Big Yawn], that sun seems like it isn't even moving."

    Rob
     
    #8 Deacon, Jun 19, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2019
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  9. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    I can imagine the encampment seeing what was to the ANE culture an omen referred to as the sun standing still declaring God is on our side (and the demoralization of the enemy).

    I tend to think it was a recognizable sign to the audience contemporary to Joshua.

    But if the universe stopped completely I'd be good with that too. God is God and can wind the astrological cogs as He deems fit.
     
  10. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    So, it just felt like a long day. *rolls eyes*

    Maybe it just LOOKED like Jesus died. After all, the account is from the point of view of man.

    What a faithless answer.

    So, you're saying they had no way of keeping time on overcast days? No, they measured time. They said the sun and moon stood still for about a whole day. Time was passing.
     
  11. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    It matters and it's meaningful. John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

    So you're saying God employed relative language. That's fine in some cases, but is problematic later on. It would also reveal God's mind about which coordinate system is the right one, and that would be an earth-centered inertial frame. But only if Relativity is true,

    The sun standing still, and hastening not to go down is relative language, and the moon standing still is not relative language. How do you know which is which? I would surmise you don't know from the Scriptures.
     
  12. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Is this this relative language and if so how do you know?

    Mark 16:2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.

    London is west of Jerusalem but east of New York City,

    Also "up" and "down" are relative to the x,y coordinates on the earth. "up" is relative to the equator
    and/or the north or south poles.

    That is the consequence of living on a globe circling the sun rotating on its axis.

     
    #12 HankD, Jun 20, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2019
  13. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    You’re very critical Aaron!
    But you didn’t read what I said with understanding.
    If God controls time it doesn’t really matter.

    Think: If your watch stopped and if you have nothing to reset it to, how could you tell how much time had passed?
    Their watch had stopped.

    Rob
     
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  14. 2Pillars

    2Pillars Member
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    Jos 10:13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

    Based on my Biblical understanding:

    Jesus was literally the Sun which did not set that Day.
    Scripture speaks of Jesus’ Glory.... as being brighter than the Sun that shield them until the people avenged themselves upon their enemies as spoken in the context of the text above.

    Psa 84:11 For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.

    IF the normal sun had stopped in Heaven, the Milky Way Galaxy would have been scattered all over this Universe.

    I am saying that since Jesus acted as the Sun of that Day - whose' Glory is brighter than the noonday sun (Acts 26:13) that blinded Saul on the road to Damascus, He (Jesus) is the reason Joshua thought the Sun didn't set. Remember that Jesus' Glory is also the light of Heaven. Rev 21:23 literally speaking.

    God bless
     
    #14 2Pillars, Jun 21, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2019
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  15. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    Exactly, but the old earthers don't believe your observation and want to use this as a weapon.
     
  16. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    It was a miracle and it was accurately reported per Dr Henry Morris of the Institute for Creation Research in an article from 2003:

    Some quibble about the language employed, suggesting that Joshua thought the sun "moves," instead of the earth. The fact is, the motion of any heavenly body must be given in terms of relative motion (since all objects in the universe are moving in some way). Scientists normally assume the fixed point of zero motion to be the one which makes their equations most convenient to use, and this usually is the earth's surface at the location of the observer. Joshua's language was . . . quite scientific!

    Furthermore, many scholars have documented numerous traditions of a "long day" (or "long night," in the western hemisphere) about the time of Joshua. The Biblical story is well supported as a real fact of history. There was a long day!

    Joshua's Long Day
     
  17. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    If the account was merely, the sun stopped, then that reasoning might suffice. But it also says the moon stopped. And that is not relative speech. There is no real doubt that the moon does really move around the earth. So, if in reality, the earth had simply stopped spinning, the moon would still appear to move.

    Relativity states there is no truth value to any cosmological model. Saying all objects are in motion is an assumption. One can say the sun goes round the earth, or the earth goes round the sun with equal scientific authority, because either can be assumed to be the center of mass of the universe and motionless (any point can, according to Relativity) and the resulting observations justified according to the laws of physics, e.g. gravity, speed of light, etc.*

    But no point can be proven to be the center, and the law of probability, assuming the Big Bang, virtually guarantees that the earth is no where near the center, and does move. But that's a philosophical argument, not a scientific one.

    So, what really happened? If Relativity is true, it can't be known what really happened, because there is no truth value to the term, the sun rises, or of the term, the sun sets. And Christ used phrases with no truth value. His Father "maketh His sun to rise."

    *The Evolution Of Physics : Elnstein,Albert. : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive (page 224)
     
  18. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    In reality all our senses are relative.

    e.g. We do not actually "see" anything, Light waves bounce off articles then the light enters through the lens of our eye and is translated into nerve impulses, sent via the optic nerve to the brain and translated again to travel/react to brain synapses giving us a distant relative "view" of what is really out there.

    Don't fret, Father knows best.
     
  19. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    :Roflmao That is not Relativity, grandpa. And biological sensory perception is very much real and a guide to truth. Did the crowds not see the miracles? Did they not hear Christ's words? "Never man spake like this man!"

    Did they not see Him die? Did they see Him risen?

    I am not fretful at all. I can accept a geocentric universe. I think it's described in Genesis 1, and I think Christ spoke truth.
     
  20. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Yes it is relative. Relative to the truth that only God can see of the physical universe.
    We can trust Him for the sensory provision He has given though our nervous system by which He reveals Himself.

    One day we will "see" in resurrected bodies without a translation through our nervous system of a flesh and blood body.

    1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
     
    #20 HankD, Jun 22, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2019
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