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What scriptural evidence is there for...

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Joseph_Botwinick, Dec 27, 2002.

  1. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    So Aaron,

    Are you saying that there is no happy medium between Calvinism (God's Sovereingty) and Free Will like Helen, Rose-Marie, and Ken H have stated?

    Joseph Botwinick [​IMG]
     
  2. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Only if you misdefine free will. If God chooses someone to be saved, they won't resist him. Their will has been changed so that they will to seek God and come to him in salvation. Others God leaves to their own will, free to anything it wants.
     
  3. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    Be my guest. If you don't find this conversation uplifting, you are free to go and start encouraging others elsewhere on the board. It is quite big you know and has lots of different forums for all different types of people who have all different types of needs.

    As for me, I think my first post explains my interest in this topic. I am still questioning both sides of the issue and have not come to a hard and fast conclusion as to what I believe. So before you start judging me for debating and discussing, perhaps you should get to know me a bit better.

    Joseph Botwinick [​IMG]
     
  4. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    I am first of all judging myself.

    Adios. [​IMG]

    Ken
     
  5. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    In line with the original request for Scripture:

    O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
    Matthew 23:37

    Then Jesus cried out, "When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me. I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.
    "As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day."

    John 12:47-48

    It should also be kept in mind that the Pharaoh who was confronted by Moses hardened his own heart a number of times before the Lord finished the job, as He said He would.

    The idea of being 'free to choose' what it is in your nature to do is nothing more than saying a bird is free to follow its instincts. That is an oxymoron. Freedom to choose means two or more AVAILABLE options. Giving a donkey the freedom to choose between alfalfa hay and a raw steak is no choice. If a man has a choice, then there are two or more things he may actually and effectively choose from.

    It is not choice to follow one's nature or instincts. However it is choice if one is given the option to at least wish against one's own nature, even if one is unable to do anything about it. This is the anti-Calvinist position I take. We are free to wish to be different even as horrid and unredeemed sinners. In fact, I see the unredeemed acting on this wish every day of the year. It's just that they are unable to do anything about it -- that is something only Christ can do for them if they are willing to humble themselves and submit to Him.

    So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and said to him, "This is what the Lord, the God of the Hebrews, says: 'How long will you refuse to humble yourself before me?'"

    Please note that here, in Exodus 10:3, it seems apparent that this is something Pharaoh could actually do if he wanted to!

    There, by the Ahava Canal, I proclaimed a fast, so that we might humble ourselvbes before our God and ask him for a safe journey for us and our children, with all our possessions.
    Ezra 8:21

    You save the humble, but bring low those whose eyes are haughty.
    Psalm 18:27

    [the Lord is speaking] This is the one I esteem:
    he who is humble and contrite in spirit,
    and trembles at my word.
    But whoever sacrifices a bull
    is like one who kills a man,
    and whoever offers a lamb,
    like one who breaks a dog's neck;
    whoever makes a grain offering
    is like one who presents pig's blood,
    and whoever burns memorial incense,
    like one who worships an idol.
    They have chosen their own ways,
    and their souls delight in their abominations;
    so I also will choose harsh treatment for them
    and will bring upon them what they dread.
    for when I called, no one answered,
    when I spoke, no one listened.
    They did evil in my sight
    and chose what displeases me.

    Isaiah 66:2-4

    Seek the Lord, all you humble of the land,
    you who do what he commands.
    Seek righeousness, seek humility;
    perhpas you will be sheltered
    on the day of the Lord's anger.

    Zephaniah 2:3

    Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.
    James 4:10

    It does appear as though there is an actual choice to humble oneself or to remain proud.

    This is rather an important choice, as the Lord favors the humble.
     
  6. russell55

    russell55 New Member

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    God, in His sovereignty, works out His will through the free choices of men. Whatever is going to happen will happen, and it will happen because a sovereign God has decided it will happen, but at the same time, it will not interfere with real men making real choices. Calvinism, BTW, says that these these things that seem contradictory to our finite pea brains are in truth compatible in the creation of the infinite God.
    Actually, even the elect are "pre-wired" to reject God. It's called our "sin nature", or our bondage to sin. It is only because God overcomes our pre-wiring through the effectual inner rewiring work of the Holy Spirit that anyone chooses God.
     
  7. postrib

    postrib New Member

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    "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him" (John 6:44).

    Repentance and faith are gifts from God to those he chooses:

    "As many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48).

    "By grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8).

    "If God peradventure will give them repentance" (2 Timothy 2:25).

    "Give repentance to Israel" (Acts 5:31).

    "God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life" (Acts 11:18).

    http://www.geocities.com/postrib
     
  8. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Does the giving of the Ten Commandments presuppose man's ability to keep them?

    Even so the verses you quoted do not presuppose any man's freedom to choose Christ.

    Also, you explanation of Pharaoh contradicts Paul's, and I think I will go with Paul's.
     
  9. jimslade

    jimslade Guest

    The front gate of HEAVEN reads "Whosoever will may come" walk through the gate and turn around, it reads "Chosen before the foundation of the world".
     
  10. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    Aaron asked the following:

    Does the giving of the Ten Commandments presuppose man's ability to keep them?

    Even so the verses you quoted do not presuppose any man's freedom to choose Christ.

    Also, you explanation of Pharaoh contradicts Paul's, and I think I will go with Paul's.


    1. Are there any unredeemed who stay faithful to their spouses? Are there any unredeemed who do not murder? Are there any unredeemed who tell the truth?

    2. Can a man who is unredeemed value the truth? If so, then the Father will lead him to Christ. So it is not a matter of anyone choosing Christ, but of initially choosing the truth -- and from there seeking, knocking, and asking. If you think the unredeemed cannot do that, then you need to read the verses immediately following that encouragement -- where Jesus refers to the people He is speaking to as evil...

    3. God did harden Pharaoh's heart, just as He said He would.
    In accord with the series of choices He knew the Pharaoh would make...
     
  11. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    Helen,

    How did God know what choices he would make unless he pre-determined what his choices would be? Sounds like God chose to harden his heart because God chose for Pharaoh to make those choices. It seems to me that he was pre-wried, if you will, to choose this way.
     
  12. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    Free will is one of those biblical things that, if you don't believe in it, it doesn't matter how much biblical support is out there.

    There is indeed biblical support for it. But posting it here will result in no one changing his/her mind.
     
  13. broallison

    broallison New Member

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    Micah 6:8 wrote: "If God, in all of his soveriengty, chose soemone to be saved, are you saying that they could resist his election and grace and thwart the will of God? I believe that "Irresistable grace" and the "Soveriengty of God" teaches contrary to that. If I am correct, there is no free will. Either God is completely soveriegn or we have free will."

    Why can't God in His sovereignty give man a free will? If He is not willing that any should perish but ALL come to repentance, then what happens to His sovereignty? Your irresistable grace and limited atonement is totally contrary to verses like 1John 2:2 and Rev. 22:17.

    Probably the reason that more have not answered is that they are tired of the whole discussion.
     
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