What sealed the deal for you?

[franklinmonroe]

You're kind of playing with words here aren't you? Of course Moses destroyed the Decalogue if the term can mean the physical item--and I believe it can linguistically. If someone burned a Bible you could say, "You destroyed the Bible" while understanding theologically that it exists forever in God's mind...

No, I did not intend this to be a semantic game.

There might be some circumstances where it could be possible to state that "Moses destroyed the Decalogue" without confusion, but in the context of this discussion (where it had just been stated that God's words are always perfectly preserved in Heaven and in God's mind) it sounded contradictory. That is, until one realizes that you were now speaking of a different type of preservation.

The preservation of God's words in Heaven requires no materials; the preservation of God's words in His mind will not decay, cannot be stolen or destroyed. The preservation of God's word in Heaven and in His mind is perfect, pure, and unchangeable. The preservation of scriptures by placing them in a protective box, or using acid-free archival-quality paper is entirely different.

I don't think that its the conservation of materials that most people are expecting to discuss when addressing the Doctrine (of the Preservation of Scripture). But you clearly understood my point, since you illustrated so precisely that there is a distinction between the medium and the intellectual content.

 

[franklinmonroe]

... I suggest you study the various things God is said to preserve in the Bible. For example, He preserved David's life--but not permanently and in a certain sense not perfectly, since David got sick sometimes, got old and then died...

I don't know that I would always use the word "preserve" but a similar notion is basic to nearly every story in the Bible. God also preserved/saved/protected Noah and the human race; God preserved/saved/protected Abraham; God preserved/saved/protected Joseph; God preserved/saved/protected the children of Israel; God preserved/saved/protected Isaiah; God preserved/saved/protected... well, you get the idea.

But your example and mine are all humans. As I recently stated in another thread, "preservation" in scripture is (almost?) exclusively about people. Yet, there is no OT verse that uses the English word "preserve" to describe what God did for David. You admit that "preserve" is not precise in this application because it is neither perfect, nor permanent. I think you possibly overapply the notion of preservation.

 

[John of Japan]

No, I did not intend this to be a semantic game.

There might be some circumstances where it could be possible to state that "Moses destroyed the Decalogue" without confusion, but in the context of this discussion (where it had just been stated that God's words are always perfectly preserved in Heaven and in God's mind) it sounded contradictory. That is, until one realizes that you were now speaking of a different type of preservation.

Now you are catching on to my quiz. I would like people to understand that there are various kinds of preservation. Even when people talk about divine preservation, they usually fail to distinguish between the perfect preservation of His Word in the mind of God and the physical preservation of the Bible He performs on earth. And as I am trying to say on this thread and have said various times on the BB before, human preservation as a responsibility from God is usually completely ignored.

The preservation of God's words in Heaven requires no materials; the preservation of God's words in His mind will not decay, cannot be stolen or destroyed. The preservation of God's word in Heaven and in His mind is perfect, pure, and unchangeable. The preservation of scriptures by placing them in a protective box, or using acid-free archival-quality paper is entirely different.

This is all completely true. My goal on this thread is to help people think more deeply about their doctrine and distinguish these two kinds of preservation as well as other kinds.

I don't think that its the conservation of materials that most people are expecting to discuss when addressing the Doctrine (of the Preservation of Scripture). But you clearly understood my point, since you illustrated so precisely that there is a distinction between the medium and the intellectual content.

And once again you are on target. I believe that the dialogue about the doctrine of preservation both on the BB and in the literature is greatlly hindered by the lack of most participants to recognize the differences in kinds of preservation, and recognize the connections between them and the implications of those connections.

 

[John of Japan]

I don't know that I would always use the word "preserve" but a similar notion is basic to nearly every story in the Bible. God also preserved/saved/protected Noah and the human race; God preserved/saved/protected Abraham; God preserved/saved/protected Joseph; God preserved/saved/protected the children of Israel; God preserved/saved/protected Isaiah; God preserved/saved/protected... well, you get the idea.

But your example and mine are all humans. As I recently stated in another thread, "preservation" in scripture is (almost?) exclusively about people. Yet, there is no OT verse that uses the English word "preserve" to describe what God did for David. You admit that "preserve" is not precise in this application because it is neither perfect, nor permanent. I think you possibly overapply the notion of preservation.

I think the best way to answer this is simply to post my outline of the general doctrine of God's preservation.

THE GENERAL DOCTRINE OF PRESERVATION​

INTRODUCTION: There is a general doctrine of preservation in the Bible. That is, the Bible does teach that God preserves many things, among them His Word, the Bible. (NOTE: This will only be a statement of the general doctrine of preservation, not an exhaustive treatment, since these outlines are on the specific preservation of Scripture.)
Let's present the doctrine Scripturally.

I. The Doctrine of Preservation Stated
A. The sovereign God, who created all things, also preserves all things; the entire universe and everything in it are held together only by His power.
1. "Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshipeth thee." (Neh. 9:6)
2. "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or power: all things were created by him, and for him: and he is before all things, and by him all things consist." (Col. 1:16-17)
B. One of God's names is "Preserver." (2 Sam 22:3, Job 7:20)

II. The Objects of His Preservation
A. The saints--"For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off" (Ps. 37:28). "He that keepeth thee will not slumber." (Ps. 121:3b) He will preserve:
1. their lives (Gen. 45:5, Deut. 6:24, Ps. 30:3, 33:19-20)
2. them from trouble and evil (1 Chron. 4:10, Ps. 32:7, 121:7, John 17:15, 2 Thess. 3:3)
3. them from evil men (Ps. 31:20, 41:2, 97:10, 140:1, 141:9)
4. their path (Gen. 28:15-22, Ex. 23:20, Josh. 24:17, 2 Sam. 8:6, Ps. 91:10, 121:8, Prov. 2:8)
5. the fatherless and widows and foreigners (Jer. 49:11, Ps. 146:9)
6. their spirit, soul and body for Heaven--eternal security (John 17:11-12, 1 Thess. 5:23, 2 Tim. 1:12, 1 Peter 1:5, Jude 1)
7. them from sin, according to their prayers (1 Sam. 25:39, Ps. 19:13, 141:3, Jude 24)
8. them from Satan (John 17:15)
9. them from temptation (1 Cor. 10:13, Rev. 3:10)
B. Israel (Josh. 24:17, Jer. 31:10)
C. Jerusalem (Is. 31:5)
D. The animal kingdom (Ps. 36:6, Matt. 10:29)
E. His ordained governments (2 Chron. 6:16, Col. 1:16-17, Rom. 13:1)
F. His own secrets (Matt. 13:35, Rom. 16:25)
G. The heavens and the earth (2 Peter 3:7)
H. His own Word, the Bible (Ps. 12:6-7, etc.)

CONCLUSION: God created everything, and thus has the power to preserve everything. This doctrine should be a great comfort to the Christian. If not even a sparrow can fall to the earth without His knowledge, how much more must He watch over us!

However, there is a responsibility resting on the shoulders of the believer also: he must trust in the Lord. If by his own foolishness the child of God gets into trouble, the Lord may answer his prayer for deliverance. However, how much better it is for the Christian to pray ahead of time to be kept from sin and trouble and evil men! That is a prayer that the Father will gladly answer for the modern saint just as He did for Jabez (1 Chron. 4:10), David and a host of others (Heb. 11).

 

[David Lamb]

I remember the RAV. Have you any idea where one can be acquired?

As far as I know, no one is publishing it now, so you would have to watch out for a second hand copy. There is one available on Amazon, at: http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_ss...ds="Revised+Authorised+Version"&Go.x=8&Go.y=8

 

[franklinmonroe]

Now you are catching on to my quiz. I would like people to understand that there are various kinds of preservation...

Mission accomplished! :thumbs:

 

[franklinmonroe]

... B. One of God's names is "Preserver." (2 Sam 22:3, Job 7:20)

I didn't find "Preserver" in 2 Samuel 22:3 (KJV) --

The God of my rock; in him will I trust: [he is] my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence.​

Its still a great verse though!

 

[robycop3]

i don't think there's any question among Christians that God preserved His word. The question actually is, "Was GOD limited to one exact set of words?"

I don't believe GOD is limited in ANYTHING. I believe He can do anything. And according to Amos 3:7, He won't do anything affecting man without first telling His servants the prophets, so they can tell other men. And NOWHERE do I see any of His prophets telling us GOD IS LIMITED to just one English Bible version.

Once again, that's why I say the AV1611 itself was a 'deal-sealer' for me. It was written BEFORE the current doctrine about it came into being, with this doctrine being ENTIRELY MAN-MADE after the fact. It's be pretty rash and silly of me after reading several BVs, old and new, from cover-to-cover, to ADD any doctrine to those derived from those Bibles, or to believe someone else's doctrine contrived by man & not by GOD, about His own word.

 

[franklinmonroe]

... Yet, there is no OT verse that uses the English word "preserve" to describe what God did for David. You admit that "preserve" is not precise in this application because it is neither perfect, nor permanent...

I must somewhat amend my above statement. Actually, in the KJV there are verses that say that God "preserved" David (2 Samuel 8:6,14 and 1 Chronicles 18:6,13). However, the Hebrew word in these verses is yasha' (Strong's #3467) which means to save, be saved, be delivered. The KJV translates this word as "save" 149 times, "saviour" 15 times, "deliver" 13 times, "help" 12 times, and with several other words (it is rendered "preserved" just 5 times). Many other versions do not use "preserved" in 2 Samuel 8:6 (verse 14 has the same structure but with a different location, and 1 Chronicles 18 is repetitious of this passage) --

and David putteth garrisons in Aram of Damascus, and Aram is to David for a servant, bearing a present;
and Jehovah saveth David whithersoever he hath gone; (Young's Literal Version)

Then David put garrisons in Aram of Damascus, and the Syrians became servants to David and brought tribute.
And the Lord gave victory to David wherever he went. (ESV)​

This word got translated "preservest" in Psalm 36:6. Some other Bible versions do not use "preserved" --

Thy righteousness [is] as mountains of God,
Thy judgments [are] a great deep.
Man and beast Thou savest, O Jehovah. (Young's Literal Version)

Your righteousness is like the mountains of God;
your judgments are like the great deep;
man and beast you save, O Lord. (ESV)​

The other "preservest" in the KJV also escaped me previously; its found at Nehemiah 9:6. But the Hebrew word here is chayah (Strong's #2421) which defined is to live, have life, remain alive, sustain life, live prosperously, live for ever, be quickened, be alive, be restored to life or health. This is the only occurrence where it is rendered "preservest".

Thou [art] He, O Jehovah, Thyself -- Thou hast made the heavens, the heavens of the heavens, and all their host, the earth and all that [are] on it, the seas and all that [are] in them, and Thou art keeping all of them alive, and the host of the heavens to Thee are bowing themselves. (Young's)

"You alone are the LORD. You have made the heavens, The heaven of heavens with all their host, The earth
and all that is on it, The seas and all that is in them.
You give life to all of them And the heavenly host bows down before You. (NASB)​

 

[John of Japan]

I didn't find "Preserver" in 2 Samuel 22:3 (KJV) --

The God of my rock; in him will I trust: [he is] my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence.
Its still a great verse though!

Well, the English term is not there per se, though it is in Job. But the concept is certainly there in that He is our Rock, our shield and a high tower we can hide in.

But with this post and the longer post you gave concerning my outline on the wider doctrine of preservation, please get the broad picture instead of concentrating on details. The usual presentation of the doctrine of preservation of Scripture starts with the doctrine of inspiration, then proceeds from there to a doctrine of preservation by inference. My position is that we should begin with the general doctrine of God's preservation, God as the Preserver, and then proceed from there to the particular doctrine of Biblical preservation.

What does this approach do for us? Among other things, it forces us to examine the Scripture as to God's purposes in the preservation of Scripture. Look at the classical preservation passage of Matt. 5:17-19. This is where the Bible most clearly presents God's preservation of the phonemes (a simple sound) and morphemes (a sound with meaning) of Scripture. But note His primary purpose: that all should be fulfilled. So this statement of preservation presents the need of Man to know God's revelation as secondary to God's desire to fulfill His plan.

What are the practical implications? To give just a narrow example, this means that I shouldn't let the differences in the Stephanus TR and the Scrivener TR (or between the TR and the Robinson-Pierpont Byzantine Textform) bother me! God is in control of those little differences, He knows which is the original, He knows what will be fulfilled. It is my task as I translate to get the meaning right, to portray God's revelation correctly in Japanese.

 

[robycop3]

John of Japan, you got one wrong. Psalm 12:6-7 is not about word preservation, but about the PEOPLE of Psalm 12, namely David & friends, whom God preserved from being killed by Saul.

 

[John of Japan]

John of Japan, you got one wrong. Psalm 12:6-7 is not about word preservation, but about the PEOPLE of Psalm 12, namely David & friends, whom God preserved from being killed by Saul.

I did this outline 20 years ago and have never revised it. :type:

 

[Salamander]

I did this outline 20 years ago and have never revised it. :type:

No need to revise it. It is doctrinally inline with all Scripture and I LOVED it!

 

[John of Japan]

No need to revise it. It is doctrinally inline with all Scripture and I LOVED it!

Why thank you! :type: