When did Caiaphas die?

Good. Look forward to your responses.

Yes John was a "type" of Elijah. This is exactly the maning Jesus had in mind. I'm confused about what you believe here. Do you think there is still a future Elijah? Jesus clearly identifies John to be the one that Malachi prophecied about.

This is one I have yet to get a straight answer on.

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then shall he render unto every man according to his deeds.
28 Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

1. If this was 3 days later, why does it say "some" would still be alive? Would not all in all probability still be alive? "Some" indicates more than just a few would not be.

2.It says "coming in His Kingdom". It doesn't say a fore-taste or type.

3.What do you do with verse 27? No-one will answer this. Verse 27 speaks of the His coming and Judgement, and you can't have His Judgement unless you have the resurrection. So did that happen at the Mount of Transfiguration? Or is there yet another 2000 year gap between verse 27 and 28?

Except for the fact that Jesus said these thing would happen in the 1st century Jews lifetime. In their generation. So yes, I have a problem taking it out of the 1st century context.

So that statement was completely meaningless to whom it was made. Futurist have absolutely no regard for audience relevence. This was a statement made to and about the daughters of Jerusalem.

You are correct. This was one of the first things I studied when I started dealing with Preterism. I recommend Kenneth Gentry's "Before Jerusalem Fell".

There are different possibilities with this. Eyes simply could mean understanding as it does in other places in the NT. However I beleive He is making the point that those in the land of Judea and possibly all the Roman Empire would see the fall of Jerusalem as Christ's coming in an OT motiff.

The only ones who will never change are those who refuse to. I was just as Pre-mill as anyone on this board till I really started looking at it. Then it became a question of do I want to change my lifelong beliefs. I decided I don't care which view is correct, I just want to know the truth. So here I am, waiting for someone to rescue me from this lonely island.

I do not know when Caiaphus died. Nor do I think anyone really knows. As far as reading the text, lets set the context of the text. To whom is Jesus speaking?

57 And they that had taken Jesus led him away to the house of Caiaphas the high priest , where the scribes and the elders were gathered together.

Now to the text:

64 Jesus said unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Henceforth ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.65 Then the high priest rent his garments, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy: what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard the blasphemy:

As I have been told by futurist, the YE is plural. OK its plural. Jesus was speaking to Caiaphus, scribes, and elders. So my view still holds whether he is dead or alive.
Again, what is the futurist interpretation of this verse? Other than the preterist are wrong.

Did Jesus say he would see Him with his eyes? Or did He say he would see His coming? Big difference. Can "you" not also be plural? Can you show me where "generation" means something other than contemporaries? Make sure you use the correct greek word for examples.

Trust me, I asked the same questions and many more.

 

GH said:

1. Except for the fact that Jesus said these thing would happen in the 1st century Jews lifetime. In their generation. So yes, I have a problem taking it out of the 1st century context.

2. You are correct. This was one of the first things I studied when I started dealing with Preterism. I recommend Kenneth Gentry's "Before Jerusalem Fell".

3. There are different possibilities with this. Eyes simply could mean understanding as it does in other places in the NT. However I beleive He is making the point that those in the land of Judea and possibly all the Roman Empire would see the fall of Jerusalem as Christ's coming in an OT motiff.

4. Did Jesus say he would see Him with his eyes? Or did He say he would see His coming? Big difference. Can "you" not also be plural? Can you show me where "generation" means something other than contemporaries? Make sure you use the correct greek word for examples.
___

Once again, we see the bizarre and ridiculous method of interpretation by the preterists: choose one meaning of the time references and reinvent the meanings of other words. Classic.

Grasshopper, come out of shadow.

1. Actually, he NEVER said that. Not even once.

2. I second that recommendation. You should be able to find it for $0.97 somewhere. It sure it a good book to help start a fire.

3. It is not even possible for the rest of the world to view it that way as most of the world didn't even know about Christ. To them, it was just another pounding administered by the Romans. Nice attempt. I broke another rib laughing so hard.

4. GH, this is one of your favorite verses and you don't even know how to interpret it. Let me remind you that Christ spoke directly to Caiaphus and said that he would see Christ SITTING NEXT TO THE FATHER AND RETURNING IN THE CLOUDS. If Caiaphus saw the returning in the clouds, he also saw Christ sitting next to the Father. Tell me where this old man who was about to die got such powerful eyes.

 

Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 But when these things begin to come to pass, look up, and lift up your heads; because your redemption draweth nigh.
29 And he spake to them a parable: Behold the fig tree, and all the trees:
30 when they now shoot forth, ye see it and know of your own selves that the summer is now nigh.
31 Even so ye also, when ye see these things coming to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished.

Matt 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation .

Why don't you read it first. Then tell me where he is factually wrong. But then again you never provide proof, just attack.

Luke 21 Now it came to pass in those days, there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be enrolled.

What does "world" mean here? Do a little research before attacking.

Let me remind you that Christ spoke directly to Caiaphus.

Funny, you argued in another thread that He wasn't speaking to Caiaphus.
Did you forget? Which is it? Didn't you say Ye is plural therefore couldn't be referring to Caiaphus? Oh what a tangled web we weave.....

And once again you cannot interpret the verse. You have no idea what it refers too do you? You had your chance at dealing with these verses but chose to run and hide. Let someone else who is serious take a shot at it.

 

I'm no authority by a long shot, but I can understand Grasshopper's view here better than any other when it comes to Matt. 24. It seems to me the twisting starts when trying to indicate Jesus was speaking of a time 1,000's of years later when He clearly seemed to be speaking to the 1st century people.

I would appreciate hearing arguments based on scripture rather than insults and wisecracks. I'm sure there are more people reading this thread than those who post. Maybe I'll see something here that will help me.

 

When Jesus said 'this generation' in Matthew 24 and Luke 21, he had just layed out a whole series of events that would take place. So he is saying that 'this generation' (that sees these events) will not pass away until they are all completed.

In other words, this generation that sees the events will see all of them. So the events will take place in a relatively short time frame (7 years to be exact).

GH has picked one meaning of the time references and prostituted the meaning of the events into symbolic mumbo-jumbo.

 

So Bro. Tony I take it you will not deal with the scriptures I listed?

 

Interesting idea. It seems awkward to me, though. Why would Jesus say "This generation..." rather than "That generation..." if He was speaking of people who were not within earshot of his words?

Jesus promised that Caiaphas would see him coming ... (I may have missed this, but) how is this reconciled in a futurist view?

This is why I find some parts of the preterist view intriguing. The first and most obvious understanding of these words would indicate an event coming within the lifetime of the listeners.

Now perhaps this is not meant to be literal... but then it would seem that Jesus was misleading the people he spoke to.

It boggles my poor little mind... what's left of it!

 

You sound like me 2 years ago. Don't quit!

 

Good, I was afraid you would do like many and bail out when it gets down to actually proving ones views.

I will work on these.

I was there once. Now I believe it is your position that has the terminal problems.

Why have you ruled out the early date? I was shocked at the lack of evidence for a late date when I studied this subject. Most all of the late daters use one paragraph from Irenaeus to base their beliefs on. The book I recommended does an excellent job of looking at the internal and external evidences of both positions.

Study will make us both better enlightened. I enjoy the challange to prove scriptually my position.

 

To quote, hit full reply form, then go down where it says quote and hit it. Then paste your message in between the two ends.

I shall return.

 

Rom. 11: 7 What then? that which Israel seeketh for, that he obtained not; but the election obtained it, and the rest were hardened:8 according as it is written, God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this very day.

Would you take the above verse as literally seeing and hearing as you take the one in Acts?

7 Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen.

You say every eye shall see His return. What does Jesus say?

[ 19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

How long is a little while? Jesus says when He leaves the world will see Him no more. How do you reconcile these two? Why did they ask "how will you manifest thyself"?


Here is some things I have on this:

Some will probably be wondering at this point about the reference in Rev. 1:7 to "every eye" seeing Him and how this fits in with this interpretation. It should be noted that the word for "see" is often used not of sight, but of perception. For example, in John 14:19, Jesus says, "He that has seen Me has seen the Father." Or, "every one that sees the Son and believes in Him shall have everlasting life" (John 6:40). Now, if you use the same interpretation here as most do in Rev. 1:7, only those who saw Jesus with their literal eyes could be saved! We use the word "see" in the same manner today, sometimes with literal intent: "I see clouds in the sky," and with figurative intent at other times: "I see!" As Paul wrote to the Ephesians, "May the eyes of your understanding be enlightened" (Eph. 1:18).

Before we consider this further, let’s look at the rest of the context. “...and the tribes of the earth will mourn over him.†The word translated “tribes,†is phule. This word means tribes and it is always in reference to the tribes of Israel. That is the way it is used throughout the Greek New Testament. It does not mean nations. The word ethnos means nations, or gentiles throughout the Greek New Testament. It does not mean people. The Greek word for people is laos.

The translations that use people or nations are incorrect. The word translated “earth†is ge This word can mean “earth,†but just as often it means “land,†such as “the land of Israel,†or “the land of Judea.†To use the term, “the earth of Israel,†or “the earth of Judea†would be improper. Because we are dealing with the tribes, land is the proper translation here.
To reinforce this idea, we will now look at the word “mourn,†or “wail* in many translations. The Greek word is kopto and it means neither mourn nor wail. It literally means “to beat one*s breast.†This was an act of mourning that was practiced by the Jews, similar to sitting in sackcloth and ashes. We do not practice this custom today. The context of this passage is the Jews in the first century. They were the ones who would see him.

Now back to “...every eye will see him, even the ones who pierced him.†Can we honestly say that “every eye†here is to be taken in a literal and absolute manner? First, it is a hyperbole, or exaggeration. We use similar language every day. At the final seconds of a close and heated game of basketball, it can be said that every eye was on the ball. First, we have to consider the context. Every eye is only in reference to those watching the game from the stands. This does not include the rest of the world who are not involved. Even of those in the stands, not every eye was on that ball. At least some were not paying attention, or more interested in their food.
So let*s be reasonable and understand that the first century Jews are the ones implied. They were the ones who pierced him. That in itself limits the event to the first century. Jesus was to come on the clouds in judgment, which he did in A.D. 70. Those people did witness the event. Every eye did see him — that is, every eye within the intended context.

Not sure where you are headed with this one.

We could spend hours on this. I do not think of the church as replacing Israel, it is the New Covenant form of the Old Covenant Israel. It is "spiritual" Israel. Perhaps my good friend Tim would care to jump in on this one.
Here's a link for a preterist view on this:http://www.presence.tv/cms/allisrael.shtml

Matt. 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee into the next: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone through the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Wait, are you saying those disciples have still not gone through the cities of Jerusalem yet? You see my problem with that explanation? Jesus is talking to His disciples, not some future peoples thousands of years in the future. He told them YE shall not go till the son of man be come. I am a strong believer in "audience relevence". The first application must be made to whom it was written or said.

Interesting phrase you use, "at hand". I think you are going to regret that.

This phrase and other time-indicators are what led me and keep me at full-preterism. Did God communicate to us in language and terms we would understand? I say yes. Lets look at that phrase in other places.

Matt 26:45 Then cometh he to the disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.

II Tim 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
Ok.

1 Peter 41 Forasmuch then as Christ suffered in the flesh, arm ye yourselves also with the same mind; for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2 that ye no longer should live the rest of your time in flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
3 For the time past may suffice to have wrought the desire of the Gentiles, and to have walked in lasciviousness, lusts, winebibbings, revellings, carousings, and abominable idolatries:
4 wherein they think strange that ye run not with them into the same excess of riot, speaking evil of of:
5 who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the living and the dead.
6 For unto this end was the gospel preached even to the dead, that they might be judged indeed according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore of sound mind, and be sober unto prayer:

What things are ending?

James 58 Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord is at hand .
John 2:13 And the passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.

Does "at hand" change meanings now?

Revelation 11 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass : and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;2 who bare witness of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, even of all things that he saw.3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand .

Seems John is letting us know in verse 3 that it is "at hand" in case we missed the "shortly" in verse 1.

Is it your belief that these terms "at hand" ,"shortly" "near" and "soon" have different meanings when it comes to eschatology than they do in other situations?

I believe unless you understand the OT use of language, you can never understand prophecy of the NT. I'll show you some verses I think must come into play when interpreting the NT. Keep in mind the OT and NT are written by Jews and to Jews. The 1st century Jews would have been very familiar with OT passages and their meaning.

Comings of the Lord

Isaiah 19:1 The burden of Egypt. Behold, Jehovah rideth upon a swift cloud, and cometh unto Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

Ps. 18: 9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down; And thick darkness was under his feet.
10 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly; Yea, he soared upon the wings of the wind.

Micah 1: 3 For, behold, Jehovah cometh forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth.

Ex. 3: 8 and I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians,

Use of clouds in His comings:

Exodus 16:10 - It came about as Aaron spoke to the whole congregation of the sons of Israel, that they looked toward the wilderness, and behold, the glory of the LORD appeared in the cloud.

Exodus 19:9 - The LORD said to Moses, "Behold, I will come to you in a thick cloud, so that the people may hear when I speak with you and may also believe in you forever." Then Moses told the words of the people to the LORD.

Exodus 34:5 - The LORD descended in the cloud and stood there with him as he called upon the name of the LORD.

Leviticus 16:2 - The LORD said to Moses: "Tell your brother Aaron that he shall not enter at any time into the holy place inside the veil, before the mercy seat which is on the ark, or he will die; for I will appear in the cloud over the mercy seat.â€

Numbers 11:25 - Then the LORD came down in the cloud and spoke to him....

Note that in several of these passages, Yahweh is said to have “come,†He “descended,†“came down,†and “appeared.†This is language similar to that which Jesus used in reference to His own second coming. Question: was the “body†of Yahweh seen at these times or was it just that the cloud signified the presence of Yahweh? Were these manifestations of Yahweh “bodily and physical?†The answer is obvious.

Psalm 18:912 - He bowed the heavens also, and came down with thick darkness under His feet. He rode upon a cherub and flew; and He sped upon the wings of the wind. He made darkness His hiding place, His canopy around Him, darkness of waters, and thick clouds of the skies. From the brightness before Him passed His thick clouds, hailstones and coals of fire.

Psalm 97:23 - Clouds and thick darkness surround Him; righteousness and justice are the foundation of His throne. Fire goes before Him and burns up His adversaries round about.

Psalm 104:3 - He lays the beams of His upper chambers in the waters; He makes the clouds His chariot; He walks upon the wings of the wind...

Isaiah 19:1 - The oracle concerning Egypt. Behold, the LORD is riding on a swift cloud and is about to come to Egypt; the idols of Egypt will tremble at His presence, and the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.

Daniel 7:13 - I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven one like a Son of Man was coming, and He came up to the Ancient of Days and was presented before Him.

Here is some commentary:

Note that in the New Testament references to Jesus’ coming with clouds, the majority of scholars agree that Jesus is pointing back to this passage, referring to Himself as the “Son of Man†in Daniel. Was the main point of Jesus in doing so to assert a “physical, bodily†coming, or was it more to identify Himself with that Son of Man who was to receive glory and a kingdom that would not end or pass away (see Daniel 7:14). Preterist believe the latter.
Joel 2:12 - Blow a trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm on My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble, for the day of the LORD is coming; surely it is near, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and thick darkness. As the dawn is spread over the mountains, so there is a great and mighty people; there has never been anything like it, nor will there be again after it to the years of many generations.
Nahum 1:3 - The LORD is slow to anger and great in power and the LORD will by no means leave the guilty unpunished. In whirlwind and storm is His way, and clouds are the dust beneath His feet.

Zephaniah 1:1415 - Near is the great day of the LORD, near and coming very quickly; listen, the day of the LORD! In it the warrior cries out bitterly. A day of wrath is that day, a day of trouble and distress, a day of destruction and desolation, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and thick darkness...
Note also that many of the references to Yahweh coming in or with the clouds have to do with His bringing judgment upon His enemies and those who rebelled against His covenant. Again, there was no physical, bodily coming of Yahweh at these times.

I have an idea. Let us focus on one thing at a time. I, like you, probably have a 100 different directions you want to go. I'll let you try to walk me out of my Preterist position, starting with how I got in. When are the "Last Days" and what are they. I will post the question on the next post.

 

I have heard all my life we are living in the last days. Preachers use the term all the time. What does the Bible say about the "Last Days"?

Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Seems the writer of Hebrews believes he is living in the last days.

What does Peter say?

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel ;17 And it shall come to pass in the last days , saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Here Peter is quoting a prophecy by Joel concerning what would happen in the last days. Peter say it was happening that day.

So how do we get the last days out of the 1st century?

One explanation that our good friend Ed holds to is that the last days started at Pentecost and continue on today. Ed is smart enough to understand that the Second Coming, Kingdom, Judgement, and Resurrection are to happen in the last days. Therefore to be intellectually honest with scripture he extends the last days and does not limit them to the 1st century.

Of course the problem I have with this is that it renders the term "last days" as meaningless. Not to mention it makes 90% of Evangelical Pastors who preach we are in the last days look like bafoons. Under Ed's belief of course we are living in the last days, and everyone born since pentecost is. A preacher who says we are in the last days is like a College Biology Prof telling his class, "humans breath air". Obviously.

The other problem with taking the last days out of the 1st century is you ignore the numerous time-indicators throught the NT concerning when the Coming, Resurrection, etc.. would be.

So What say ye Bro. Tony? Are we in the "Last Days"?