Great question. I believe the Isaiah reading can very well constitute a Gospel call. He still desired some additional explanation, he already believed in the Messiah, but all he really wanted was the identity of the Person in question, which Philip provided.
Another good question! I believe the Ordo Salutis is universal. The same from Genesis through Revelation. God only has one "plan of salvation." :)
When did regeneration occur?
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by AdamL, Jan 7, 2018.
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InTheLight Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
You are asserting that people who go to church, read the Bible, pray, respond to invitations to repent and believe--these people ARE NOT seeking God. I concede they may not be truly born again.
I know that Calvinists like to play with word definitions, i.e. "all" does not mean everyone; "world" does not mean everyone, but really, this is the furthest stretch of a definition I've ever seen!
Sent from my Pixel 2 XL -
13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2
How did non-Jews who neither had the law nor were hearers of the law become equipped with the law written in their hearts? (how did those of v 29 become 'circumcised of heart'?)
John 3:8, that's how. -
There are two ways to avoid/ignore God. One way is religion (elder brother). The other way is the way of the Prodigal Son. -
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Why must the Magi have been regenerated before they started their search? See the other response I made to you about my own personal journey to faith. God ordering events in a person's life does not mean regeneration has taken place. -
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
AdamL,
Hello AdamL,
Welcome to Baptistboard,
When God effectually draws and saves someone He uses whatever means He does to convict and draw that person to truth;
Chapter 10: Of Effectual Calling
1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3;Song of Solomon 1:4 )
2._____ This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.
( 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:5; John 5:25; Ephesians 1:19, 20 )
3._____ Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )
4._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3 )
I know of people who were reading the bible to mock and ridicule it, but when the Spirit quickens the word to them....it is all over... -
I appreciate everyone's responses so far.
There are some conflicting responses, kyredneck says that yes they were both saved before meeting Philip or Peter and being presented with the Gospel. Reformed took the position that they could not be saved without hearing the Gospel and that regeneration, faith, repentance, and justification would practically be instantaneous but regeneration must precede faith and repentance.
@kyredneck- when would they have bee regenerated? How could they be regenerated without the power of the Gospel?
@Reformed- I have had many Calvinist tell me that a person could be regenerated moments, hours, days, months, or even years before they showed signs of regeneration. How do we explain this?
Another question to anyone is that many have claimed that the things these men were doing were not seeking God. As Iconoclast put it unsaved men can be very religious and sometimes this religious activity can be mistaken for "seeking God". So how are we to see the fruit of the Spirit in someone's life? How do we that are saved seek to draw closer to God? I would imagine it would involve reading and studying the Scriptures and communication with our Heavenly Father through prayer, being involved in our local congregation and giving alms to help support it and it's work. How is this different than what these men exhibited? If a person gets saved you would expect them to attend services, read their bible, pray, get involved in ministry in some capacity. -
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
InTheLight
25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;
26 But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.
27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.
28 And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,
They were religious until election was preached...religious but unsaved. -
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I would then ask how you are born from above apart from the Gospel.
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