When is an oak tree not an oak tree?

Established for years? Well, yes! The Latin Vulgate was established in 405 A.D. --

et adhuc in ea decimatio et convertetur et erit in ostensionem sicut terebinthus et sicuti quercus quae expandit ramos suos semen sanctum erit id quod steterit in ea​

As I have shown, most scholars and translators do think that the terebinth is the tree that is intended in Isaiah 6:13. However, I have seen NO evidence that the KJV word "teil" identifies the terebinth; in fact, all the evidence points to "teil" being a completely different tree species (the tilia). Previously, you argued that the tilia (teil) trees familiar to England could have been transplanted in Israel --

Then you argued that the "specific tree is not exactly mentioned either" (your post #27) and that the trees here were "mentioned as comparisons, not specifically and individual" (post #30) and you insisted that they were "not specific trees" (post #31) but rather figuerative "types". Now you're asserting that "teil" does specify the terebinth? Can you offer a dictionary that defines "teil"? Can you show us a source in which the word "teil" directly and clearly means terebinth.

Please elaborate; how is "teil" a nuance of translation? Why did the AV men chose "teil" over 'turpentine' (or terebinth) at Isaiah 6:13? The KJV translators knew the terebinth (a.k.a. 'turpentine') tree. Notice Ecclesiasticus 24:16 from the apocrypha --

As the Turpentine tree, I stretched out my branches, and my branches are the branches of honor and grace. (AV1611)

ego quasi terebinthus extendi ramos meos et rami mei honoris et gratiæ (Vulgate, 24:22)

I have stretched out my branches as the turpentine tree, and my branches are of honour and grace. (Douai)​

 

Gill never even uses the word "terebinth" in his commentary of Isaiah 6:13! Gill does not identify this "teil" tree by any other name. Gill does not associate it with the production of turpentine or give any other indication that he thinks "teil" is the terebinth. Gill makes no attempt to specifically identify the kind of tree represented by the word "teil" of the KJV text (other than the deciduous characteristic).

So, precisely by which phrase or sentence below do you think "John Gill Expositor" has affirmed a direct and clear meaning of the word "teil" as terebinth? Here is the appropriate portion (the entire context can be read at Post #25 and #27) --

as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance [is] in them, when they cast [their leaves];
the word "Beshallecheth", which we render, "when they cast their leaves", is by some, as Jarchi, Aben Ezra, and Kimchi observe, thought to be the name of a gate in Jerusalem, called "Shallecheth", from which a causeway went towards the king's palace, from whence it had its name, (1 Chronicles 26:16) and along which causeway, as is supposed, were planted teil trees and oaks, which are here referred to. But the Targum, Jarchi, and Kimchi, interpret the word as we do, of casting their leaves: and the sense seems to be this; that as the teil tree and oak, when they cast their leaves in autumn, and look as if they were dry, withered, and dead, yet have a substance in them, and in spring appear alive and green, and flourishing again; so the Jews, notwithstanding their miserable destruction by the Romans, when they were stripped of all their riches and glory, yet were not utterly consumed as a people, but remained an entire distinct people, and do so to this day, among the nations of the world; though, like a dry withered trunk of a tree, without verdure or beauty; the reason of this follows:​

 

Are you suggesting now that teil (teile) tree is actually the birch? In James Orchard Halliwell's 1881 A Dictionary of Archaic and Provincial Words, Obsolete Phrases, Proverbs and Ancient Customs (page 856) --

TEILE. The birch tree. (Lat.) According to Junius, the lime tree was so called.​

This entry serves to support the information as given in the OP: "teil" (or teile) is an archaic term meaning tilia which is also known as the 'lime tree' in England (the 'linden tree' or 'basswood tree' elsewhere), a variety of tree that is NOT native in the middle east.

Again, the evidence shows that "teil" does NOT indicate the terebinth or 'turpentine tree'.

 

To the detriment of all readers here, you don't usually quote sources. But, you were first to invoke his commentary when you wrote "Try John Gill for starters" (your post #19). What does the fact that Sal himself didn't actually cite Gill have to do with proving Sal's claim about Gill below? It only serves as a diversion! --

What evidence is there in his commentary of Isaiah 6:13 that Gill believes that "teil tree" means the terebinth? None! Gill does not even mention the word 'terebinth'. Were you avoiding the question because your false statement could NOT be substantiated?

 

Unfortunately, in the brevity of some commentaries it may not made perfectly clear that the word "teil" actually designates a different tree species than the terebinth that has been almost universally accepted as the kind of tree that should be represented by the Hebrew word 'elah (Strong's #424) found in Isaiah 3:16. For example the entry for 'Teil; tree' in the International Standard Bible Encylopedia merely states that --

teil the King James Version Isa 6:13 = the Revised Version (British and American) TEREBINTH (which see).​

This gives the false impression that teil is synonymous of terebinth. In reality, there is no attempt to qualify the term "teil" here. But E. W. G. Masterman writing for the ISBE entry 'Terebinth' makes no connection between teil and terebinth; the choice is only oak or terebinth; in part --

ter'-e-binth: (1) 'elah (Isa 6:13, the King James Version "teil tree"; Hos 4:13, the King James Version "elms"); in Gen 35:4 (the King James Version "oak"); Jdg 6:11,19; 9:6 (the King James Version "plain"); 2 Sam 18:9,10,14; 1 Ki 13:14; 1 Ch 10:12; Isa 1:30; Ezek 6:13, translated "oak," and in margin "terebinth"; "vale of Elah," margin "the terebinth" in 1 Sam 17:2,19; 21:9. (2) 'elim (Isa 1:29, "oaks," margin "terebinths"). (3) 'allah (Josh 24:26, English Versions of the Bible have "oak," but the Septuagint terebinthos). (4) 'elon, "oak (margin, "terebinth") of Zaanannim" (Josh 19:33; Jdg 4:11); "oak (the Revised Version margin "terebinth," the King James Version "plain") of Tabor" (1 Sam 10:3); also Gen 12:6; 13:18; 14:13; 1 Sam 10:3; Dt 11:30; Jdg 6:19 all translated "oak" or "oaks," with margin "terebinth" or "terebinths." (5) In Gen 14:6 Septuagint has terebinthos, as the translation of the el of El-paran. (6) In Ecclesiasticus 24:16 terem (b)inthos, the King James Version turpentine tree," the Revised Version (British and American) "terebinth."

It is clear that the translators are uncertain which translation is correct, and it would seem not improbable that then there was no clear distinction between oak and terebinth in the minds of the Old Testament writers; yet the two are very different trees to any but the most superficial observation...​

A portion of the Dictionary of the Bible (1872) by William Smith, Horatio Balch Hackett, Ezra Abbot (page 2200) --

2. Elah (..."oak", "elah", teil-tree" in Is. vi. 13: "elms" in Hos. iv. 13). There is much difficulty in determing the exact meanings of the several vatieties of the term mentioned above: the old versions are so inconsistent that they be little by the way of elucidation. Celcius (Hierob. i 34) has endavored to show that el, elim, elon, elah, and allah, all stand for the terebinth-tree (Pistacia terebinthus), while allim alone denotes an oak. Boyle in Kitto's Cyc. art. "Alah") agrees with Celsius in identifying the elah with the terebinth, and the allon with the oak. Hiller (Hierphyt. i. 348) restricts the various forms of this word to different species of oak, and says no mention is made of the terebinth in the Hebew Scriptures. Rosenmiller (Bib. Nt. p. 237) give the terebinth to el and elah, and the oak to aliah, ellim, and elim.​

There is no mention of "teil" ('modern' KJV spelling) which is the 'lime' or 'linden' tree (tilia). There is an association between the Hebrew word 'elah and the terebinth, but there is NOT correspondance between the English word "teil" and the terebinth tree.

 

It is very clear that you have espoused the notion that "teil" is not the same word as "teile" based upon orthography. But English spelling was not standardized before the 17th century; a silent 'e' was often appended to words, and the last consonant sometimes was doubled by the printers to fill out the line of text. However, even beyond this the 1611 original AV spelling was actually "Teyle" (as I previously alluded in Post #20) --

13 ¶ But yet in it fhalbe a tenth, || and
it fhall returne, and fhall be eaten: as a
Teyle tree, and as an Oke whofe || fub-
ftance is in them, when they caft their
leaues: fo the holy seede fhall be the fub-
ftance thereof.​

In the glossary of Golding's translation of Ovid's Metamorphoses we find --

teil/teyle (n): lime or linden tree. Book VIII (795). NFS.​

The online American Heritage Dictionary states at TEIL --

n.
[OF. teil, til, L. tilia.]
(Bot.) The lime tree, or linden; -- called also teil tree.​

Webtser's 1828 Dictionary states --

TEIL-TREE, n. [L. tilia.] The lime tree, otherwise called the linden.​

The Collaborative International Dictionary of English shows --

Tilia \Til"i*a\, n. [L., linden. Cf. Teil.] (Bot.)
A genus of trees, the lindens, the type of the family
Tiliaceae, distinguished by the winglike bract coalescent
with the peduncle, and by the indehiscent fruit having one or
two seeds. There are about twenty species, natives of
temperate regions. Many species are planted as ornamental
shade trees, and the tough fibrous inner bark is a valuable
article of commerce. Also, a plant of this genus. [Webster 1913 Suppl.]​

In English Etymology: Or A Derivative Dictionary of the English (1783) George William Lemon lists from Saxon --

LIND/LINDEN - Sax. Lind; Iceland lind; tilia; the teil-tree: Lye.​

There is no doubt, in English "teil" (or its other forms such as "teyle" or "tiele") indicates the 'tilia', also known as the 'linden' tree.

 

That is funny! :laugh:

 

It is evident that you want to have this thread closed and are attempting to offend by making false accusations. I hope your ploy does not work. This is a fascinating verse and the discussion could be advanced if so much time was not wasted upon correcting your misinformation.

 

Why must you (not "we") presume him "an idiot" simply because Gill is silent on the matter of 'teil' meaning terebinth?

So, since Gill is silent on the matter of the species of the tree referred to as "teil" in the KJV, show us the two or three commentaries or dictionaries that you used to make your absolute statement below --

You didn't (and couldn't) prove it with Gill since he merely mentioned those extra-biblical traditions as "thought to be" or "as is supposed" by others that he didn't always agree with himself. You didn't write 'could have been' or 'maybe', you wrote that they are those trees. You stated as fact that the ornamental tilias were "imported". Where is your evidence?

 

Why didn't you say this in the first place (3 weeks ago)? So what are you suggesting now? that when reading the sense should be thus --

A remnant should return, and shall be eaten: as a procured tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them...​

 

Hmmm, that sounds a lot like the AV had the word "teyle" which meant the tilia tree in 1611, but the meaning was changed to 'procure' when a spelling revision caused the completely different English word "teil" to emerge. Isn't that what you said?

 

Does that mean that the English word "elm" also means 'procure'? You know, in the case of Hosea 4:13 (which I hope to get back to) where the same Hebrew word 'elah occurs. Or is there different golden nugget for "elm" you will teach us?

According to you "teil" does mean 'procure' while at the same time it also means the terebinth, right?