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When is it complete?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by music4Him, Jan 1, 2005.

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  1. music4Him

    music4Him New Member

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    Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon


    5046 teleios tel'-i-os from 5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with 3588 ) completeness:--of full age, man, perfect.


    3588 ho ho, including the feminine he hay, and the neuter to to in all their inflections; the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom):--the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Thank you ~DianneT & DHK~ for the links. I finally found this one posted below (DHK I think its pretty close to the one that you posted before?) Any ways it has the Hebrew and Greek lexicons with the Strong's numbers.

    http://www.eliyah.com/lexicon.html


    Music4Him
     
    #41 music4Him, Jan 6, 2005
  2. music4Him

    music4Him New Member

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    Found this at the Crosswalk link that DianneT posted~

    Original Word: perfect
    Word Origin: tevloß from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)

    Telos 8:49,1161
    tel'-os Noun Neuter

    Definition:
    end, termination, the limit at which a thing ceases to be (always of the end of some act or state, but not of the end of a period of time)
    the end

    the last in any succession or series

    eternal

    that by which a thing is finished, its close, issue

    the end to which all things relate, the aim, purpose

    toll, custom (i.e. indirect tax on goods)
     
    #42 music4Him, Jan 6, 2005
  3. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan New Member

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    Maybe this thread would be more easy to understand if we converted it to a six or seven question 'Poll'?
     
    #43 SpiritualMadMan, Jan 7, 2005
  4. music4Him

    music4Him New Member

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    I've never done a poll before......any takers to do so would be fine. [​IMG]

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Addict~
    Sweety I have read that and probley posted the same thing in another thread. But I did however notice that the word complete as a noun in the neuter form is completeness. Thank you~

    Music4Him
     
    #44 music4Him, Jan 7, 2005
  5. music4Him

    music4Him New Member

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    Has everyone conceded that perfect and complete in the neuter noun form mean the same? Also that it would be an event that will cause completness?
     
    #45 music4Him, Jan 8, 2005
  6. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    In almost every case the KJV word "perfect" meant "complete."

    2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
    Timothy was not to be sinless, but complete--completely prepared, throughly furnished.

    Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
    --The command is tha we should be perfect. The sense is complete. Only God is perfect--perfectly complete in all of his attributes. We should strive to be completely mature in having the attributes have of God: love, justice, mercy, kindness; i.e. the fruit of the Spirit. Perfect is complete. The same word is used here: teleios, but it is a different word in 2Tim.3:17.
    Needless to say in the Old English the word "perfect" meant "complete" and often did in the Greek as well.
    DHK
     
    #46 DHK, Jan 8, 2005
  7. music4Him

    music4Him New Member

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    Well there you go..........

    Ok let me see if I get this straight perfect (teleios in the Greek) means complete except for in 2 Timothy 3:17 where its refering to man in general (because if it refers to man) it would have to be masculine or fenimine right?
    __________________________________________________
    Timothy was not to be sinless, but complete--completely prepared, throughly furnished.
    __________________________________________________

    Now are you still saying the word perfect in the greek form "teleios" is the same as referring to 1 Cor. 13:10?

    1 Cor. 13:10 ~
    For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect (completeness) is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

    And thus this scripture is saying when the (thing/event which will make everything complete) is come then we will no longer need prophecy, tongues, and knowledge. But right now one would have to decide/speculate as to what the "perfect"&gt; ("teleios") "complete"&gt; thing/event is. (i.e. the Rapture, 2nd Comming when the last trump sounds, or the written word of God?

    I guess thats why I asked "when is it complete"...
    maybe I should have asked what do you think the word perfect means in 1 Cor. 13:10 means? [​IMG]

    Music4Him




    DHK, first you told me that perfect is neuter so it cannot be refering to a person, then in the last post you metion Timothy and how he was complete. :confused:
     
    #47 music4Him, Jan 8, 2005
  8. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Teleios is an adjective. It describes something. If Timothy was to be a perfect man or a complete man, the adjective rendered perfect would be a masculine one. Our English language does not bear those things out; most other languages do. The word teleios in 1Cor.13:10 is a neuter adjective, and thus cannot refer to Christ.
    DHK
     
    #48 DHK, Jan 8, 2005
  9. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    The word teleios in 1Cor.13:10 also means complete. It is the completed Word of God, completed or perfected when the Book of Revelation was completed.

    Psalms 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

    James 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

    God's Word is perfect. God proclaimed it to be so.
    DHK
     
    #49 DHK, Jan 8, 2005
  10. music4Him

    music4Him New Member

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    Teleios or teleion? Neuter noun or adjective?

    posted January 03, 2005 04:49 PM (page 2 on this thread)
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    Paul answers that question when he says, "when that which is perfect is come." It is almost universally accepted that the Greek word, "teleion" is a neuter noun, and thus could not refer to Christ or any other masculine object. It must refer to something of a neuter gender. Again, the context is revelation. These three temporary gifts have to do with revelation. They were given to the church in the first century because the canon of Scripture was not yet complete, and they provided the extra revelation needed that we today have in the completed Word of God.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------


    Now I gotta go look it back up in the lexicon again. [​IMG]

    Have a good day! [​IMG]
    Music4Him
     
    #50 music4Him, Jan 8, 2005
  11. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    In almost every case the KJV word "perfect" meant "complete."

    2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
    Timothy was not to be sinless, but complete--completely prepared, throughly furnished.

    Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
    --The command is tha we should be perfect. The sense is complete. Only God is perfect--perfectly complete in all of his attributes. We should strive to be completely mature in having the attributes have of God: love, justice, mercy, kindness; i.e. the fruit of the Spirit. Perfect is complete. The same word is used here: teleios, but it is a different word in 2Tim.3:17.
    Needless to say in the Old English the word "perfect" meant "complete" and often did in the Greek as well.
    DHK     </font>[/QUOTE]Every time we read Scriptures like this, it reckons people as "in Christ" - as with their sins forgiven - and therefore as "perfect". They are so for no moment in themselves, or it no longer will be of and by grace.
     
    #51 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jan 10, 2005
  12. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Paul, addressing Timothy, said "that you may be perfect, a state not yet accomplished. It clearly was not referring to Timothy being "in Christ" an action that occured when Timothy came to know Christ as Saviour. Timothy was being made perfect. He was in that process. What would make him perfect? Understand that the word means complete or even mature in this case. What would make him complete and mature? It was the Scriptures, as he spent time in them, studying them, memorizing them, meditating upon them. Read the context again:

    2 Timothy 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

    What does "that" refer back to? What was going to make Timothy perfect, complete and mature? Look at the preceding verse, verse 16.

    2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

    It was all Scripture that was going accomplish this in Timothy's life, the inspired Scripture, the Word of God.
    DHK
     
    #52 DHK, Jan 10, 2005
  13. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    #53 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jan 15, 2005
  14. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    You err and disregard the truth and the plain sense of the Scripture. If the Bible says that the Scripture makes one perfect or complete, are we in a postion to call God a liar just because are minds are made up to believe otherwise? I hope not. Study the passage again.

    2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

    Scripture is given (by inspriation)...that the man of God may be perfect (complete).

    Your argument is with God. He wrote the Bible. This teaching is as plain as it gets.
    DHK
     
    #54 DHK, Jan 15, 2005
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