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When is the definite article important?

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by franklinmonroe, Jan 8, 2012.

  1. thomas15

    thomas15 Well-Known Member

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    The OP is in regard to the article. I could offer up a possible reason or explanation that will make my case but this is not what I'm trying to do here. I believe that I'm correctly defining in article and giving a valid example.

    To back up my case with respect to the article, I quote from Essentials of English 5th ed. Hopper, Gale, Foote, Griffith 2000 Barron's Educational Series pg. 24:

    The most used adjectivals are the articles a, an and the. A and an are called indefinate articles because they single out any one unspecified member of a class. The is called a definate article because it specifies a particular member or a particular group of members in a class.
     
  2. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    Then by this rule (which says nothing about 'first person'), "a God" should indicate that this particular God is merely one unspecified member out of a entire class (of Gods). Is that the OT idea being conveyed below and then repeated in the NT? God here is speaking about Himself --
    Exodus 6:7
    And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I [am] the LORD your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.

    Hebrews 8:10
    For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
     
    #42 franklinmonroe, Jan 29, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 29, 2012
  3. thomas15

    thomas15 Well-Known Member

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    I really don't want to get into this because as far as I'm concerned the issue brought up in the OP is strictly one of English rules of grammar. However, rules of English grammar work with a conviction (as far as I'm concerned) that the best commentary of the Bible is the Bible, or to put it another way our doctrine must be in agreement with the entire Bible, not just a possible intrepretation of one verse or passage. The Bible makes it very clear that there is only one (true) God. The writer of the book of Hebrews is quoting the OT(Jer ch 31), many in that audience believe(d) in other "gods", as do the JWs (and others) due today.
     
    #43 thomas15, Jan 30, 2012
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  4. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    Perhaps the KJV translators mistranslated those verses... Ah, probably not. They were the only inspired translators... :BangHead:
     
  5. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    Instead of "be to you a God" at Exodus 6:7 as in the KJV, the earlier 1560 Geneva Bible has "be your God." That is also the rendering of the NKJV.

    Instead of "be to them a God" at Hebrews 8:10 as in the KJV, the 1560 Geneva Bible has "be their God." Thati is again the rendering of the NKJV at that verse.
     
  6. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    I Samuel 2:3

    GEN a God of knowledge
    KJB a God of knowledge

    NKJ the God of knowledge



    Isaiah 30:18

    GEN the God of iudgement

    KJB a God of judgment
    NKJ a God of justice
     
  7. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    Actually, my OP was intended to discuss when it may or/may not be appropriate to translate the (Greek) article as the definite article "the" in English. It has since shifted (which is fine by me) to an emphasis on the indefinite article (mostly as a result of discussing the JW rendering of John 1:1).

    I agree (and knew) that the Greek article (in whatever form) does not necessarily have to take the same definite meaning as "the" in English, and many times it is not translated at all. It has been my limited observation that the Greek article is rarely ever translated as "a" in English, but rather "a" is most often inserted into English when a Greek article is absent (again, thus the opening for the JW translation at John 1:1).

    Yes, but it seems that our translations sometimes tend to mislead the reader by use of the English indefinite article. I also concur that our doctrine must be in agreement with the entire Bible, not just a possible intrepretation of one verse or passage. However, I have already shown several verses (as have others now) that read "a God"; and these are not readily misinterpreted passages. Our God is "a God"! [The capital 'G' is of great significance.] The One True God is in a class unto Himself.

    The NWT rendering would not offend me if it were displayed as "a God" (the passage would still logically be equating God-the-Word with God-the-Father); the heresy is the JW insistence of the small 'g' ["a god"] for the Word.
     
    #47 franklinmonroe, Jan 30, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 30, 2012
  8. thomas15

    thomas15 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with everything you say
     
  9. DaChaser1

    DaChaser1 New Member

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    If you read some of the JW literature regarding jesus as a god though...

    they sometimes use the translation 'A God" used in some bible versions to make their 'Ignorant of the Greek" translation of the word being "a god" seem passable!
     
  10. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Let us remember that the JW "translation" was made in 1950 by Freddie Franz(who later became the big kahoona of the Botchtower) and his buddy George Gangas, a greek Cypriot, and they made their NWT by revising the Revised Version of 1881(Revision Revised) to fit JW doctrine, I. E. "a" god in John 1.
     
  11. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Here's another one to consider-"the love of money is *THE* root of *ALL* evil" in 1 Tim. 6:10 The Greek article is ABSENT between "love of silver" and "root". But there must be an article in English for the verse to make sense. The lack if the article in the Greek calls for the English "a", which reality shows is the CORRECT English rendering. (The correct rendering of "pas kakos, "all sorts of wickedness", is a subject for another thread.)
     
  12. DaChaser1

    DaChaser1 New Member

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    Are they part of the scholars that translated theor bible, who admitted in court could not read either Greek/hebrew Alphabets?

    Must have their own version of the Mormon eyeglasses!
     
  13. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Yes, Franz was, in a court in Scotland. They didn't have Rosetta Stone in the 1950s.
     
  14. DaChaser1

    DaChaser1 New Member

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    Think they had an interlinear version of their Bible, but was pulled out due to parts of the Greek not agreeing with thei rown version!
     
  15. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Yeah, it's known as the Kingdom Interlinear Translation.(KIT) There are still lotsa copies around.
     
  16. DaChaser1

    DaChaser1 New Member

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    You know something not quite right if your own english bible goes against the Greek text!
     
  17. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    Happens more than you might think.
     
  18. DaChaser1

    DaChaser1 New Member

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    Any examples come to mind?
     
  19. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    First and most often one that comes to my mind is when certain words were translitterated instead of translated (brought over into a new language in essentially the same form as the original language). When we read "baptize" what we should be reading is "immerse." That is how the term -- for the most part -- was used during the 1st century. We would not be having as many of these doctrinal discussions over the issue it the word was translated instead of translitterated.

    When we read "Jesus" we should be reading "Joshua" ("Jesus" is the English translitteration of the translitterated Latin version of the translitterated Greek version of the Hebrew "Yeshua" or as correctly spoken in English, "Joshua"). It would be ironic if the object of our love and devotion -- to whom we worship and adore by name, "Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, there is something about that name..." -- made as His first act among men the realization that we have had His name wrong for centuries.

    There are other issues, obviously, and all well-documented by those who keep track of such things for profit.
     
  20. DaChaser1

    DaChaser1 New Member

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    Just curious as to how Immanuel became Joshus/yeshua unto jesus?
     
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