When we die do we go directly to heaven??

I am certainly willing to do the "turn about is fair play" and ask "Is there anyone here who has heard so many times that Elijah was taken literally and bodily to heaven that you thought the Bible actually said that" --

If you want to try that experiment - I am perfectly happy with doing it.

First of all I agree that we can agree to look at Phil 1 INSTEAD of 2Cor 5 to try to make the case of DHK's "man-made-statement".

Certainly in 2Cor 5 we see Paul reference THREE states and he indicates that the UNCLOTHED state is the UNDESIERABLE state.

in Phil 1 he makes no mention of that 3rd state.

And I for one do not think that the person who dies SEES himself waiting in the grave for 4000 years for Christ to come.

in Christ,

Bob

 

While this is true. It is a point that is made not only in 1Cor 15 - but in fact in 2Cor 5 in John 11, in 1Thess 4... it is in all of scripture.

in Christ,

Bob

 

The "point" is Matt 22 "God is not the god of the Dead" -- we are not arguing "God is not the God of the Living" or that "Enoch died so He could be taken to heaven without dying".

As Heb 11 notes - Enoch did not die -- he still lives.

How in the world can you bring up a case of one who did NOT die as an example of what happens to someone when they DO die??

Where is the logic in that?

in Christ,

Bob

 

Again - as has been pointed out - there are 3 states identified in 2Cor 5 and Paul already made the case to the church of Corinth that without the resurrection the saints are "of all people most miserable". 1Cor 15.

In Phil 1 Paul presents the subject of death from the standpoint of the person who dies - for "the dead know not anything" they do not "see themselves waiting for their resurrection". Paul knows that they are in the John 11 (and 1Thess 4) state of sleep "Lazarus sleeps I go that I may wake HIM" -- but the dead person does not "see it". This is why Christ said in Matt 22 "God is not the god of the dead".

For the one dying - at the moment of death the experience the resurrection at the coming of Christ. That is "a given" using the Bible definition for the state of sleep in death.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Bob Ryan explains why we accept Luke 16 as a parable rather than a historic account -

Allen provide insightful response in keeping with his devotion to the tradition he has chosen.

Hmm - you appear to have ignored "the details" in Luke 16 as noted AND in keeping with that practice - you ignored "the inconvenient details" in my post as well.

It is left as an exercise for the reader to take a position between our two approaches the text of Luke 16.

in Christ,

Bob

 

DHK, I agree with Bob, I think it makes a huge difference that Paul said it was his desire to depart" and to" be with Christ rather than saying to be absent from the body is the same thing as being present with the Lord. I'm not insinuating you were making a direct quote from scripture when you said that, but on the same token this false quotation is made time and again by people trying to prove their point. It simply doesn't say that. To depart "and to" be with Christ leaves open the interpretation that Paul, because of the circumstanses that he was in, thought it far better to go on and experience death, that undesirable unclothed state without a body, knowing that when he woke up at the ressurection he would be clothed with his glorified body. Recall what Paul said in 1Thesalonians about where the source of comfort was for those who had lost loved ones. He didn't try to offer comfort by telling them that their souls were already in heaven, but that at the second coming, they would be ressurected just as those who had remained alive. Also in 1 Corinthians 15 Paul states ,
"Why am I in danger every hour? [31] I protest, brothers, by my pride in you, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die every day! [32] What do I gain if, humanly speaking, I fought with beasts at Ephesus? If the dead are not raised, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die." Here Paul states again that it was the ressurection that gave hope beyond death. As an analogy, if I told you some evening that I was "going to bed and going on vacation" , would you think I was going on vacation while in bed, or would you deduce that I was going to bed first and then go on vacation the next morning when I woke up? If I told you "going to bed "is" being on vacation, you may well think that bed rest was what I considered to be my vacation. Well, Paul was simply saying that it was his desire to depart this life, and then when he awoke he would be present with the Lord. The Bible doesn't say as soon as one departs he goes immediatelly to be with the Lord, it just says that he does. Other scriptures tell us when it will be. That's the way I see it.

 

1. Shouldn't the data from the Pauline writings settle the matter for us?

2. For the Christian Paul says, "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" (2 Cor 5).

 

There is nothing left open to interpretation. We are spirit beings. When we depart from this earthly body at death there is only one option: Hell or Heaven. We await for our resurrection at some time in the future. That is not the topic and is irrelevant. The teaching is plain: to be absent from this body is to be present with the Lord Jesus Christ. There is no purgatory. There is no Limbo. There is no soul sleep. The different cults have made up so many different intermediate places and states that the Scriptures know nothing of. If you can fnd any of these in Scripture please demonstrate through the Bible where they are: purgatory, limbo, place of soul sleep, etc. I don't find any of them mentioned, except by men, the originators of man-made religions that we normally call cults. So I make my appeal to Scripture. Where is it? Where is this place that you speak of?
There is no intermediate place. There is life. And after life there is heaven and hell. There is nothing in between--purgatory or otherwise.

Scripture does not contradict Scripture. The same teaching can be found elsewhere:

Philippians 1:21-23 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

Paul mentions only two choices: to be with the Philippians, or to be with Christ.
Note: there is no Purgatory, no soul sleep, no intermediate state. Paul is quite clear in this situation. The choice he makes is clear:
1. If he stays on this earth he lives for Christ; If he dies it is gain for he will be with Christ (22)
2. If he remains he lives in the flesh. His desire is to depart and to be with Christ (not in a SDA purgatory). The resurrection does not play any part in this.
3. Now look at vs. 23 and 24 in the WEB (World English Bible)

Philippians 1:23-24 But I am in a dilemma between the two, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. Yet, to remain in the flesh is more needful for your sake.

Paul had a problem, a dilemma. He wanted to depart and be with the Lord, and that is the desire that he expressed. He knew that that is where he would be if he were to die. If he would not die he would be able to remain in the flesh and help out the Philippians which he described as "more needful."
Again there is not even a hint of a SDA purgatory.

 

I think you totally misunderstand. Nobody made the claim there is an intermediate purgatory, limbo, or place of soul sleep. By saying “there is no intermediate place” you are contradicting yourself. The existence of a conscious spirit between death and ressurection is your belief. The term “soul sleep” isn’t in the Bible, the Lord only used sleep as a term to comfort those who had lost loved ones, giving them the assurance that they would awaken at the ressurection. The intermediate state you are referring to is the unconscious state of death. The early church only began to believe in a conscious, intermediate state when they began to mix Christianity with Greek Philosophy. None of the scriptures you give teach that one immediately departs into a state of conscious existence at death. Paul plainly tells us when our next conscious existence will take place. At the ressurection at his second coming.

 

Well said Smoky!

in Christ,

Bob

 

As we all know -- Paul does not say that.

David Lamb has already posted to the effect that when you guys claim that text exists - we should NOT think that you are claiming to actually quoting correctly -


Kinda makes you wonder how much more "claim" you coulda stuck into that 'not quoting the text" post...

But it IS clear to the unbiased objective reader that the wording YOU give it is very much essential to the doctrine you believe "anyway". David Lamb has suggested that the wording you are giving it is optional - -and we could just as easily read the text for what it ACTUALLY says instead of what you are bending it to say AS IF you "IS TO BE" section is "optional".

Hard to believe you guys are trying to have it "both ways".

in Christ,

Bob

 

OK now here is an opportunity on this board for an experiment in honesty - that might be of interest to people on BOTH sides of this question.

Look at that post above - #26.

Surely "someone" on this board will freely admit that they have HEARD the 2Cor 5 text misquoted just as DHK statid it and such person would admit that they heard it soooo many times that they actually thought it actually "existed" in that form.

Come on people - I would like to get a witness that you believed it actually existed in that form!

And then part two - SURELY there is someone on this board that will freely admit that hearing it that way you thought the exact wording in that form was very VERY helpful in making the case that you are immediately present with the Lord as soon as you "leave this decaying body"??

Surely at least ONE person will admit this!!

And finally -- you have to admit to being surprised at some point (maybe even now) at discovering that the text did not actually exist in the form that you had so often heard it!



2 Corinthians 5:8New American Standard Bible (NASB)

8we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.


King James Version (KJV)
8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.


New King James Version (NKJV)
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.


Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
8we have courage, and are well pleased rather to be away from the home of the body, and to be at home with the Lord.

Yes I know I know "all the more details to be ignore" say some --- but I thought I would point them out again.

(This was already posted #27 on this thread when DHK tried what TCGreek just tried)

 

When this was tried by DHK and pointed out by me -- David Lamb responds at the top of page 4...

Please don't get me wrong -- I am happy to have you guys promote your man-made-tradition by admitting that the quotes you give "so necessary" to your doctrine are not actually "quotes of scripture".

 

Good point Smoky!


Yet how MANY people actually DO think "TO BE absent from the body IS TO BE present with the Lord" is actually a scripture!!?

Come on - there has to be someone who thought that it existed as a scripture at one time!!

Who will give a witness here?

--

Getting back to Smoky's point above -

We went to Bermuda this year and my wife said just before the trip "I am read to pack my bags and to be on the beach".

What if I had said "I am sorry honey but our plans have changed - so for now to pack your bags IS to be on the beach"

I wonder if she would have glossed over the significant difference.

in Christ,

Bob

 

1. We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 2 Cor 5:8 (KJV)

2. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 2 Cor 5:8 (ESV)

3. I only see a difference in translation and not meaning. I understand Paul to be saying that if he is not in the body, meaning his death, then he is at home with the Lord.

4. I admit that "at home" is a better translation of the Greek word, but I see no difference in meaning.

 

Please leave the Ad Homs at home. I am fully persuaded and completely devoted to and by scripture not tradition.

Interesting. You claim I "have ignored" your little details, but the fact IS you did not address what I set forth. BUT so I am not accussed of not dealing with your statements:

FIRST, please show ONE (just one) scripture where Abraham is declared to have absolute authority over Gods departed Saints.
Yet you have a scriptural problem with your premise:

Apparently God sees Abraham as 'living' and not 'dead'.
and again we read:

The phrase "for all live unto him" in the Greek can properly be translated "they (those of faith) are alive to Him". The NLT and HNV also tranlates it in like manner.

God has All authority and thereby Christ Jesus being God Himself has all authority over the living and the dead.

God ALREADY had that authority but Christ as a man (the Great High Priest, and King) did not until all was fulfilled.

Absurd. Show please ONE (just one) prayer made by the LIVING to the DEAD. The dead unbelievers are talking and pleading with the dead believers. However, what it DOES SHOW is the unbelievers and believers awake, conscience, speaking, feeling, and reasoning. Nothing akin to your version of scripture.

1. The parable doesn't discuss ghosts at all, and yet it actaully dispoves them. The dead immediately go to their respective places.
2. The Parable doesn't discuss the wicked 'praying' to Abraham for decisions ON ANYTING relating to the Resurrection.
3. The parable doesn't even discuss their resurrection AT ALL, but shows they couldn't come back if they even WANTED to.
4. The parable does not speak of writtings of Moses being 'doctrinally authoritative will misunderstand Christ's message. Actually the reverse was true. The Pharasee, Scribes, Sadusees,Layers, ALL held the OT as doctrinally Authoritative but COMPLETELY missed Christs message.
...a. THE POINT was that they did not believe the OT messages of the coming Messiah dieing for their sins to free them from bondage becauses their works of righteousness were nothing better than filthy rags when at their best.
5. The parable DOES state they have Gods word regarding 'salvation' (not going to hell) and if they will not believe it, then NEITHER will they believe if ONE (Christ) rise from the dead - the very proof of the scriptures and what they (the OT) declared

Your right, take it for what it says, or twist it to your liking.

BTW - you state that Jude 9 deals with why Moses (being dead and with God sleeping) was at the Mt. of Transfiguration.
It reads:

There is nothing there-in which speaks to your claim. So you still must explain how a sleeping person with God was speaking with Jesus.

 

Quote:
1. It shows Abraham as having absolute authority over the dead saints. There is no appeal at all to the authority of God in that story.

hint: You are making this wayy tooo easy.

22 ""Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
23 ""In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 ""And he cried out and said, " Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'
25 ""But Abraham said, "Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
26 "And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'
27 ""And he said, "Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house
28 for I have five brothersin order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29 ""But Abraham said, "They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.'
30 ""But he said, "No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!'
31 ""But he said to him, "If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'''


Questions left as an easy exercise for the reader regarding this parable in Luke 16

#1 Where does the text say Lazarus is? (hint vs 23 section in blue)
#2. WHO does the rich man pray too?
#3. Does the rich man pray to "anyone else"?
#4. What is Abraham's sovereign decision regarding the resurrecting of one of the saints to send them to the living?

 

Actaully and again it shows nothing of sort. And AGAIN, I'll show you.

1. When the rich man 'cries out for mercy' from Abraham, does Abraham (being soveriegn in authority) deny him mercy?
Answer: No, but in fact declares there are boundries which Abraham and all others are bound to, EVEN IF THEY WANTED TO DO SOMETHING. (No authority shown here)

2. Does the Rich man appeal to Abraham because he is in control having soveriegn authority over the OT saints, Or because he SEES Abraham afar off as well as Lazarus.
Answer: Because they are the ones he sees. Another interesting note here is that the Rich man never met Abraham yet he knew who he was on sight. Again two things you claim can not be done with the dead who are sleep.

3. Is the Rich man asking for mercy from Abraham because Abraham has the authority over the dead or because he is beseeching Abraham as the "Father" of the Jewish people of whom he was?
Answer: He was appealing to a well-founded, but unavailing, claim of natural descent going back to Abraham which obligates one to help their family, IF POSSIBLE. Abraham states it is not possible to help him.

4. Did Abraham determine who was to be in Hell and who is not?
Answer: No, Abraham has absolutely no say in the matter. The Angels took Lazarus and they obey only God (full authority) but "the rich man died and was buried and being in hell lifted up his eyes being IN torments" Only God has the authority to send the Rich man there. Again God having full authority - NOT Abraham.

5. Does Abraham have the authority to cross or allow others to cross the Great Gulf fixed.
Answer: No, he does not. He declares to the Rich man it is there and is the barrier which allows no help to be given.

6. If no one can cross the Great Gulf from one place to another, does Abraham have the authority then to allow one to go back to earth in spirit form?
Answer: No, he does not. They can not leave their respective abodes not to go to one another nor to come back as spirits from the dead. Thus this proves there are no such things as ghosts (regarding our departed - but demonic spirits)

7. If Abraham has no authority to allow one to cross from hither to yon, then does he specifically have the power to resurrect even one?
Answer: No, he does not. To bring one back from the dead lies squarely and solely in the power and authority of God Himself. Only God resurrects that is final.

8. Does Abraham ever state he does not 'desire' to help the Rich man?
Answer: No it does not. Abraham states the reasons he can not do anything to help the Rich man, not that Abraham decides whom he will help. Abraham is under Gods authority even in death as all the other saints are.

9. Does Abraham state (a) he CAN resurrect the dead or (b) does he mearly state that if those still alive will not believe what God has already said, they will not believe what one who rises from the dead will say?
Answer: b.

10. Is Abraham the Soveriegn authority over dead?
Answer: No, he is mearly one of them.

Where Abraham IS, and bing in Abrahams bosom only states him as being seen reclining next to Him like at the heavenly feast ( Mat 8:11 ).

He 'prays' to no one. Unless when you respond back to me, you also are praying to me. He is speaking and pleading his case, not praying.

Again, he is not praying but conversing, just like you and I. Besides, why pray to God since it was Him that placed The Rich man in hell (as Abraham reminded him earlier) "you recieved YOUR good things (those things you wanted) and now you are in torment". Abraham didn't send him there so who did?

Abraham gave NO Soveriegn decision, and is completely unable (according to scripture) to resurrrect any man EVEN IF HE WANTED TO. That is God's alone to do.

Now, if this parable speaks of truths, we have the dead alive, conscience, feeling, speaking, pleading, reasoning, remembering - all of which refutes you opinion of the dead being asleep. You can't ingore the truth because it doesn't fit with you personal opinions.

 

Sorry Bob, where did "David Lamb post to the effect that when you guys claim that text exists - we should NOT think that you are claiming to actually quoting correctly" ? (Not sure which members of the BB you mean by "you guys", by the way). The same with "David Lamb has suggested that the wording you are giving it is optional". I have made two posts on this thread (this one makes it three), and I just cannot see where I have suggested that it is right to claim we are quoting from the bible, when in fact we are not. Nor can I see where I have suggested that anything in God's Word is optional. I would be grateful if you could tell me where I did say such things, Bob, as I certainly did not mean them.

I do attempt to write what I mean, but if I have failed in my two previous posts on this thread, I hope you will forgive me.

In an attempt to clarify what I did mean, may I say that in Post 19, I was simply saying that eternal life begings here, on this earth, and continues in glory. In Post 31, I made 2 points, first, I agreed that the exact English words, "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord," are not to be found in the Scriptures. Secondly, I pointed out that, in using those words in his post, DHK had not claimed to be quoting from scripture.

 

Now there is a text that IS in the Bible.

The one who says "I am ready to have my bags packed and be on the beach" is not claiming that the act of packing their bags transports them instantly to the beach.

In 2Cor 5 Paul identifies THREE state for mankind.

1. Clothed in this decaying earthly tent (body)
2. Unclothed.
3. Clothd in our immortal heavenly body.

in Christ,

Bob