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When will the Rapture happen in relation to the Tribulation?

Discussion in 'Polls Forum' started by ~JM~, Mar 19, 2007.

?
  1. Pre-trib.

    43 vote(s)
    67.2%
  2. Post-trib.

    9 vote(s)
    14.1%
  3. Mid-trib.

    4 vote(s)
    6.3%
  4. Pre-wrath.

    3 vote(s)
    4.7%
  5. Other, which I'll explain with a post.

    5 vote(s)
    7.8%
  1. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    The Five Tribulations
    of the Holy Bible
    Contrasted and compared
    by ed

    The following terms are used in the Holy Bible to denote
    tribulation: tribulation, distress, afliction, trouble

    1. tribulation due to the human condition
    WHO: all the sons and daughters of Adam & Eve
    WHAT: heartaches, pains, troubles, distresses, disappointements,
    affliction, trouble, ordeal, suffering, wretchedness,
    misfortune, worry, care, hardship, agony,
    anguish, torment, adversity,
    travail of a woman giving birth, disease, cancer,
    famine, plague, fatigue, depression, etc.
    WHEN: From Adam's explusion from the Garden of Eden
    to the day a new heaven & new earth is created by
    God, AKA: time as opposed to eternity
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: God only knows why, it is just the way things are,
    maybe it has to do with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden?

    2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom

    WHO: those Christians chosen by the Holy Spirit for special honor
    WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
    even people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
    WHEN: 33AD to the start of the millinnial kingdom of Jesus
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: many are called to follow Jesus;
    few are chosen to the honor of the spiritual
    gift of martyrdom

    3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
    WHO: Yisrael dispersed among the goy
    WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
    usually people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
    WHEN: during the time of the Gentiles
    (from Mount Calvary to Mount Olivet)
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: punishment for rejecting Messiah Jesus

    4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
    (AKA: Wrath of the Lamb /Revelation 6:17/ )
    WHO: citizens of the world
    WHAT: a fate worse than death (Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:6)
    WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

    5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist
    WHO: people who take the mark of the beast
    WHAT: the wrath of God
    WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half)
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

    Caveat: the number of these physical/spiritual travails
    and Time Periods is NOT sacred - just a convience
    so I won't go past the 10,000 words limit per post.

    Note that #1, #2, and #3 are measured in travail units;
    #4 and #5 are measured in time units.


    Here are the names/descriptions of the Tribulation
    Period found in the O.T.:

    The tribulation in Deut 4:30
    the day of Israel's calamity in Deut 32:35, Obadiah 1:12-14
    the indignation in Isaiah 26:20, Daniel 11:36
    the overflowing scourge in Isaiah 28:15,18
    The Lord's strange work in Isaiah 28:21
    The year of recompence in Isaiah 34:8
    The day of vengeance in Isaiah 34:8, 35:4, 61:2
    The time of Jacob's Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7
    The day of darkness in Joel 2:2, Amos 5:18, 20; Zephaniah 1:15
    See also Zephaniah 1:15-16.:
     
  2. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Here comes Ed! I know it.

    Your logical of tribulation.

    Actual, there are many various kinds of tribulations, yet all are same meaning.

    Pretrib believes, the great tribulation is so called, 'Daniel 70th Week' of Dan. 9:26-27. But, the context of Dan. 9:24-27 focus on Jesus Christ and Calvary. He already made new covenant with many during 70th week that was fulfilled by Calvary. Nothing in this passage mentioned of 'tribulation' or 'persecution'. It focus on Jesus Christ and his covenant.

    Pretrib believes the great tribulation equals with the wrath of God.

    No where in the Bible telling us that, the wrath of God shall be last for either 3 1/2 or 7 years. The wrath is different as tribulation.

    1 Thess. 3:3-4 telling us, we are appointed for tribulations, because Christ already suffering tribulations toward calvary. We are not appointed for the wrath of 1 Thess. 1:10; and 5:9, BECAUSE, we received received salvation through Jesus Christ. The wrath of God is upon unbelievers ONLY, send them unto everlasting fire or punishment, because of not believing on Christ, or remain in wicked.

    Jeremiah 30:7 already fulfilled about 500 years before Christ. Israel was taken captivity under Babylon, then later delivered them from captivity. This verse have do nothing with future supposed seven year of tribulation period. The only way that, we can understand Jer. 30:7 better, have to read throughout whole context of Jeremiah chapter 29, and even also, throughout whole chapter 30 too. The whole context of chapter 29 and 30 talk about warning to Israel, that God will punish them, for allow Babylon to capture Jerusalem, bring them into captivity, unless, they repent of their sins. And later they repented and delivered from captivity. That passahe already fulfilled during period under Ezra and Nehemiah.

    Paul tells us that, we MUST go through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God - Acts 14:22. Because Christ suffered on the corss for us, so, therefore, we should follow his example - John 16:33; 1 Peter 2:21; and 3:13-16.

    Bible doesn't promise us that we will not suffer tribulation. Bible tells us, we must face tribulations, because Christ already experincing them. So, we should follow his example.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  3. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Ed,

    you say to me:

    Whoa! You insult me. Why did you saying to me?

    I only present verses from the Bible with truth.

    Galatians 4:16 says, "Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?"

    I only show you the verses from the Bible with truth. Am I your enemy? How do you know that my view is of the devil?

    I know many Christians dislike Matthew chapter 24 and 25, because, Christ tells us, He shall come again "Immediately after the tribulation...' - Matt. 24:29-31.

    Not only Matthew chapter 24 and 25, also, many baptists and other religions dislike the doctrine of conditional salvation teachings from the Bible, because the truth is in there. Truth hurts us, but, we have to accept what God's Word saying. Follow them. What if we do not know the truth, what will happen to us? DOOM! Thank God for the Bible, so, we can know the truth makes us free - John 8:32.

    The Bible teaching us very clear, that we must go through tribulations first before Christ comes, it cannot be pretribulational. It is obivously posttribulational. We have to accept what the Bible saying so.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  4. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    Yuppp! Here I is!! :laugh: :laugh:

    The fact that the word triubulation means the same thing is not the same thing as identifying a certain period as 'tribulation', another as 'the great tribulation', and a third as 'after the tribulation' as in Mt. 24.

    I am not the one who made the distinctions, but, rather, Jesus is. I'll go with His POV, here.

    Ed
     
    #24 EdSutton, Mar 25, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 25, 2007
  5. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Mr. Sutton,

    Does in Matt. 24:20-22 actual saying that the 'great tribulation' shall be last for 3 1/2 or 7 years length?

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  6. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    DeafPosttrib: //Actual, there are many various kinds of tribulations, yet all are same meaning.//

    Not really. There are the five types i've shown above.
    Notice I detailed the differences between the the
    five types of tribulation. To really refute any part of
    my point(s) you are going to have to go into the
    details and show how the tribulations are 'are same
    meaning'.

    DeafPosttrib: //Pretrib believes, the great tribulation
    is so called, 'Daniel 70th Week' of Dan. 9:26-27.
    But, the context of Dan. 9:24-27
    focus on Jesus Christ and Calvary.//

    Actually not. Yes, at the end of the 69th Jesus comes
    the first time as a babe in the manger.
    But the 70th week is NOT about Jesus.

    Dan 9:26-27 Speaking of after the first seven weeks (KJV1611 Edition):
    And after threescore and two weekes,
    shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himselfe,


    and the people of the Prince that shall come,
    shall destroy the citie, and the Sanctuarie,
    and the ende thereof shall be with a flood,
    and vnto the ende of the warre desolations are determined.
    27 And hee shall confirme
    the couenant with many for one weeke:
    and in the midst of the weeke he shall
    cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,
    and for the ouerspreading of abominations
    hee shall make it desolate,
    euen vntill the consummation, & that determined,
    shalbe powred vpon the desolate.


    This from verse 26 is talking about Messiah the Prince.
    And after threescore and two weekes,
    shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himselfe,

    This from verse 26 and verse 27 is talking about
    the Prince of Evil (i.e. the Antichrist, the man of evil, etc)and the people of the Prince that shall come,
    shall destroy the citie, and the Sanctuarie,
    and the ende thereof shall be with a flood,
    and vnto the ende of the warre desolations are determined.
    27 And hee shall confirme
    the couenant with many for one weeke:
    and in the midst of the weeke he shall
    cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,
    and for the ouerspreading of abominations
    hee shall make it desolate,
    euen vntill the consummation, & that determined,
    shalbe powred vpon the desolate.

    BTW, the people who destroyed the Sanctuarie
    are the Romans under General Titus (later Emperor Titus).
    So the Antichrist will also be a renewed Roman,
    if not literally, then by type.

    Is this about the Antichrist or the Christ?
    And hee shall confirme
    the couenant with many for one weeke:

    Answer: about the Antichrist.


    Is Antichrist or the Christ going
    to desolate the Holy Temple Of God?

    the ouerspreading of abominations
    hee shall make it desolate,
    euen vntill the consummation

    hint:
    2 Thess 2:3d-4 (KJV1611 Edition):
    ... the sonne of perdition,
    4 Who opposeth and exalteth himselfe aboue all that is called God, or that is worshipped: so that he as God, sitteth in the Temple of God, shewing himselfe that he is God.

    Answer: the Antichrist

    etc, etc, etc,


     
  7. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Ed,

    I ask you, who is 'Prince' of Dan. 9:26?

    Christ already make covenant with many in Matthew 26:28 - "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." It fulfilled Dan. 9:27.

    And also, yes, Christ did destroyed the daily of sacirifces - Matt. 27:51 after Christ yelled, "it is finished", at the same time, God torn the veil down from top to bottom in the temple showed that Christ ended it. And He did actual destroyed that temple - John 2:19, and he raised it up in three days - his body.

    Dan. 9:26 already fulfilled in 70 A.D. that God allowed Roman army invaded Jerusalem, and destroyed temple. That why, it called, 'Abomination of Desolation'.

    God does not need physical daily sacrifices and physical building of the temple anymore. Because Jesus Christ is the answer that they need. Christ is the sacrifice for our sins.

    2 Thess. 2:4 is not relate with Dan. 9:26-27.

    2 Thess. 2:4 talks about Antichrist shall blasphemy against God, and shall rule over Church by persecute against them according Rev. 13:6-10.

    Dan. 9:26-27 already fulfilled between Calvary and 70 A.D. Actual, the context of Dan. 9:24-27 focus on the promise of the new covenant that Christ shall fulfilled it 490 years later after Daniel, the prophet penned it.

    Dan. 9:24-27 say nothing of anything about 'seven year of tribulation period'. Christ shall be cut off by calvary after his 3 1/2 years of his ministry in Israel. Christ ended it DURING on the 70th week(490 years) after Daniel, the prophet penned it.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  8. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    DeafPosttrib: //Christ shall be cut off by calvary
    after his 3 1/2 years of his ministry in Israel.//

    The 3-½-year ministry of Jesus in Israel was
    made to fit the ½-of-70th-Week-of-Daniel.
    The 3-½-year ministry of Jesus in Israel is a
    creation of man, not God. Everything
    said of the ministry of Jesus could have happened
    easily in a two-year period.
    Even so, 3-½-years is NOT the same as 7-years.
     
  9. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    Matt. 24:20-22 says nothing about how long "the great tribulation" shall last. Nor did I. That was not the question you asked, that I responded to, there. How long I think it will last is therefore not germane to the question. And the passage in question, tells us that the "decreed" time, if you will, whatever it may be, will be "shortened". By how much, is not stated, here.

    Now for the next question. I tend to think that the time is 'decreed' at "half a 'seven'", "42 months", or "one thousand, two hundred, sixty days", or "a time, times, and the dividing of time". In other words, for three and a half years. How much those days are to be "shortened", is not stated, as far as I know, so I will not speculate on that. "Shortened", by one day, seven days, one month, or whatever, is still "shortened".

    FTR, "Mr. Sutton" was my late father. LIke 'Old Man' Ed Edwards ;) :applause: :laugh:, a.k.a. EdEd, Sr., I too, go by Ed.

    Ed
     
    #29 EdSutton, Mar 26, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 26, 2007
  10. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    :)

    The current percentage of votes for the
    pre-tribulation rapture is 66.6% - six, six, six

    :)
     
  11. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    The rapture will occur when it's 77.7% :)
     
  12. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    I am aware that, most of IFB people are pretribs in America, would saying there is over 90% of IFB are pretribs.

    I ask you, HOW can you be sure that the Bible teaching pretrib rapture? You do need a clear solid evidence verse in the Bible to prove that we will be rapture before tribulation.

    Please show us a verse saying that the rapture will be occur before tribulaiton.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  13. GodsRealTruth

    GodsRealTruth New Member

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    Pre-trib Rapture:

    1 Thessalonians 1:10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

    :wavey: :jesus: :sleeping_2:
     
  14. GodsRealTruth

    GodsRealTruth New Member

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    sorry for double post
     
  15. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    The wrath to come is Judgment Day not the tribulation.

    REV 6:7 When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, "Come!" 8 I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

    REV 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.

    We are to experience the tribulation God willing. :)

    john.
     
  16. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    johnp is right.

    Nowhere in the Bible saying that the wrath of God is so called, 'seven year of Tribulation Period'. The common thing of 'the wrath of God' is always direct toward to unbelievers because of their unbelieving, and remain in sins same with John 3:36. The wrath of God is for send person into everlasting punishment - lake of fire because of not believing or not obey the gospel - 2 Thess. 1:7-9; and Rev. 14:9-11.

    Also, 1:Thess 1:10 & 5:9 both do not give us the hint of the timing of His coming, but, common for us to understand them both are talking about to deliver us from the wrath of God at His coming, IF we watch and be ready, so, we shall not be end up as 'thief'.

    So, the proof of pretrib of 1 Thess. 1:10 & 5:9 is not clear and pretribulationism's argument is weak.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  17. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Now that is something you don't see everyday. :)

    john.
     
  18. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28 New Member

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    Put it in your signature and you will!
     
  19. JDale

    JDale Member
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    Faith:
    Baptist
    Pre-Trib...

    I'm Pre-Trib, but I think I messed up Ed's 66.6% numerical evidence :tear:

    Blessings,

    JDale
     
  20. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    And may the blessings be unto JDale DOUBLE what he wished for
    us. Amen. :godisgood:
     
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