When You See Jerusalem Surrounded.....

I showed you from Dan. 2 when the Kingdom would come. No response from you.

I showed you the words of John the Baptist concerning the coming of the Kingdom where he said "the time is fulfilled". You also ignored it. Why do you refuse to deal with those passages? I can only assume you have no answer.

:laugh::laugh:

Mar 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mar 13:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
Mar 13:4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

Trust you??? You won't even answer simple questions.

I'll ask again a question you keep refusing to answer. Isaiah 13 describes the destruction of the Babylonians by the Medes. A historical event. It is described as such:

Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

I could site numerous other such examples of this apocalytic language being used to describe the fall of nations and empires. The question to you, again, is why when we see the NT Prophets use this exact language are we to assume they use it in a different manner than the OT Prophets did? It is up to you to prove it should be taken literal when in the Hebrew mind it never had been used that way in the past. Will you answer or will you ignore it yet again?

So your saying Jesus isn't King. He rules over nothing.

What do you do with Matthew 16:27?
What do you do with Matthew 26:64?
What do you do with Matthew 10:23?
What do you do with James 5:7-8?
What about Daniel 2?
What about Matthew 23?
What do the "like the days of Noah" refer to?
Why go to the Mountains if the entire world is going to be destroyed?
What about Micah 1?
What does 1 Peter 4:7 mean?
Why do the writers of the NT say they were living in the last days?
Why is the Greek unnecessary?
I can't even ask if you know what "parousia" means because of your KJVonlyism.

These and many other questions you have ignored. So if you cannot answer the simplest of questions then why should anyone trust you?

One of us has addressed these and one of us has run from these. I'll let the readers determine who has done what.

 

Grasshopper,

It is getting late, I really do not feel like writing another long post to you at the moment. Perhaps I will tomorrow if the mood strikes.

Look, I have already given you plenty of reasons why I think you are in error. You are not going to change my mind, and obviously I am not going to change yours. Maybe we should just agree to disagree.

As I said before, this is your claim, it is up to you to prove it. I do not have to prove anything.

If you want to believe Jesus restored his kingdom in 70 A.D., that is your choice.

I will give you one more thought to consider before I come back.

Mark 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Now, you like verse 30 don't you? Oh yeah, that supports your argument nicely doesn't it? I knew you would.

But wait a minute, let's examine verse 32 carefully. Jesus said no man would know when he is coming back, not even himself. Whoa, that throws a little monkey wrench into your interpretation doesn't it?

So, you see when Jesus said generation in verse 30, he could not be speaking of those currently alive, because by Jesus's own words, he didn't know if he was coming back in 40 years, 400 years, or 4000 years. So he could not possibly have been speaking of those currently alive.

Chew on that till I come back.

 

Amazing! Every time Scriptures that Winman cannot answer are presented, he is either too busy or it's getting late!

 

Give me a break, I spend far too much time on this forum as it is. My name is not Obama, I am not the one, the superman. I get tired after awhile.

Don't worry, I'll be back. And I have answered plenty. Read my last post and consider what Jesus said about when he is coming back.

 

:laugh::laugh: You noticed that as well. Funny, here are his posting stats:

Join Date 07-08-2009 Total Posts 1,215
Less than 6 months and 1215 posts. Thats 200 per month. 6 per day. Yet he doesn't have time to answer a few yes or no questions.

 

It is difficult to see that the eschatology you have been taught, and the belief system your church teaches is wrong. It is easier to continue to give pat answers to the usual verses and ignore the rest. Perhaps, given time, Winman will see the truth of your statements.

 

Wrong, and I can show that.

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

When Peter and the apostles asked when Jesus would return and restore the kingdom (not destroy it as they did in 70 A.D.), Jesus told them it was not for them to know the "times" or "seasons" which the Father hath put in his own power. Please note both words were plural.

And when Peter preached to the Jews after Pentacost he told them at least two times or ages must first take place before Jesus comes.

Acts 2:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Peter said the heavens must receive Jesus until the "times" of restitution of all things. Now, I believe this to be the fulness of the Gentiles coming in (which is still in progress at this moment), and then the tribulation and those Jews who will be brought in and saved at that time.

Neither of these things happened in 70 A.D.. If so, tell me what these "times of the restitution of all things" are, when they occured and how they were fulfilled.

 

Look, I spent hours on the forum yesterday. I spend too much time here as it is. I was tired, and it was Christmas Eve. This may not have occured to you, but I had obligations to look to.

I am not at your beckon call. I don't have to answer you ever. And if I don't that doesn't mean you are correct. Of course, in your skewed thinking you believe it does.

Why don't you start a poll, ask folks here if they believe if Jesus's second coming and the great tribulation occured in 70 A.D. or is still future?

 

I hardly think I know it all. The one thing I know is that I don't know much.

You are correct, a poll doesn't necessarily prove anything. But in this specific argument, I think it has merit. What a poll would show is that people either see evidence to support your doctrine or not. It is no different than a trial. The prosecution presents a case and argues they have evidence to convict a person of a crime. The defense argues the evidence is not valid, or argues it has evidence to prove the prosecution wrong.

I will ask you some questions, if your doctrine is true, you should be able to answer them with historical fact.

1) Who was the antichrist? What was his name?
2) Who was the false prophet? What was his name?
3) Was the kingdom of Israel restored in 70 A.D.?
4) When did the antichrist sit on the throne in Jerusalem?
5) Did all the nations come against Jerusalem in 70 A.D.?
6) Did anyone see Jesus with their eyes in 70 A.D.?
7) Was the tribulation in Jerusalem the great tribulation?
8) Were more Jews slaughtered in 70 A.D. or in WWII?
9) Did the Mount of Olives divide in 70 A.D.?
10) What was the mark of the beast?
11) Can you show and identify the mark of the beast?
12) Were people beheaded for Christ in 70 A.D.?
13) Did the sun and moon not give their light and the stars fall from heaven in 70 A.D.?
14) Did every mountain and island flee away in 70 A.D.?
15) Who were the two witnesses that were slain and rose from the dead?

That's enough for a start. If you manage to answer these with credible facts that can be verified from history, I will have many more for you to answer.

 

What a bogus answer. Just answer the questions presented. So what if I don't believe them, maybe others will.

And the claim is yours to prove. If I said a UFO landed in my back yard and I spoke with the alien leader from the constellation Ursa Major and he said I had been appointed by him to be the ruler of the world, I have to prove that.

Now, I know that was a ridiculous example. But not really. You are claiming that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Almighty, who promised to return to the world and establish his kingdom, to raise the dead back to life, to end all suffering, disease, and all wars returned in 70 A.D.. Now that is one fantastic claim to make. And it is up to you to prove it, cause I'm telling you, I'm not seeing it.

And that is why I said do a poll. Don't go by me, ask all the others here if they have seen this.

You are asking a person to believe something utterly fantastic. The burden of proof is yours. And posting scripture proves nothing, unless you can show credible, historic evidence to prove these prophesies were literally fulfilled in 70 A.D.. Posting prophetic scripture proves nothing, show when it was fulfilled.

 

1. Tha Apostle John says there are many antichrists. Which one did you have in mind?

1John 2:18. Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1John 2:22. Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1John 4:3. And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2John 7. For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

2. Scripture indicates there are many false prophets. could you be more specific? I suspect many of the Jews living in Jerusalem in 70 AD were false prophets!

Matthew 7:15. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Matthew 24:11. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Matthew 24:24. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mark 13:22. For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Luke 6:26. Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
2 Peter 2:1. But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
1 John 4:1. Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

3. Where does Scripture say the kingdom will ever be restored to Israel?

4. Where does Scripture say the antichrist will ever sit in a throne in Jerusalem?

5. Where does Scripture say all the nations will come against Jerusalem Jerusalem?

6. If anyone saw Jesus in 70 AD he is daid by now!

7. Tribulation, great or not, is in determined by those who experienced it. Can anything be worse than being dipped in pitch and set ablaze or eaten by wild animals in the Roman Circus?

8. I doubt the Romans counted the number of Jews killed in 70 AD.

9. Where does Scripture say the Mount of Olives will divide?

Before you quote Zechariah 14:4 I suggest you read Revelation 19 & 20.

10. What is the mark of the beast?

11. Can you show and identify the mark of the beast? For your information:

John Nelson Darby, the father of dispensationalism, page 305 of Revelation, Four Views by Steve Gregg states:

I confess my ignorance as to the number six hundred and sixty-six. I cannot present you with anything satisfactory to myself. We find, answering to the number six hundred and sixty six, the words apostasy and tradition; but I cannot say anything positive on the point.

Arno C. Gaebelein, a prominent dispensational writer early in the 20th century, page 306 of Revelation, Four Views by Steve Gregg:

But what does the number 666 mean? If we were to state all the different views on this number and the different applications we would have to fill many pages and then we would not know what is right and wrong. ..... The number 666 signifies man’s day and man’s defiance of God under Satan’s power in its culmination.

12. I suspect that some Christians were beheaded by the Romans in 70AD; perhaps even a few by the Jews since they did not care much for Christians. Most Christians were spared during the siege of Jerusalem because they were warned and fled. However, I suspect many dissenters from Rome were beheaded over the centuries and worse.

13. That language is symbolic so don't interpret it literally.

14. That language is symbolic so don't interpret it literally.

15. That language is symbolic so don't interpret it literally.

 

Here's what I'm getting at. When Paul preached to both Jews and Gentiles that Jesus was the Christ, the promised Messiah the Jews had been looking for since the days of Abraham, he didn't just say it, he provided proof.

1 Cor 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

Paul said he knows Jesus truly rose from the dead, because Jesus appeared to him personally, but not only to him, but to Peter and James and all the other apostles, and to over more than five hundred people which most were still alive.

Now, I'm telling you, five hundred witnesses is a lot of proof. If you were accused of committing a crime in Cleveland, Ohio on December 3, 2009 but you had 500 witnesses that said they were with you all that day in Tulsa, Oklahoma, you are not going to be convicted.

So, you can't just make these fantastic claims and then not be expected to provide some credible historic proof.

 

Nice. You provide not one iota of evidence to support your fantastic claim but try to cloud the issue by asking your own questions.

1. Tha Apostle John says there are many antichrists. Which one did you have in mind?

The son of perdition shown in 2nd Thessalonians.

2 Thess 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

By the way, Paul said there would be a great falling away from the Christian faith first, show me where that occured in 70 A.D.. Notice that this man of perdition sits in the temple of God shewing himself to be God. This is the fellow I want you to identify.

2. Scripture indicates there are many false prophets. could you be more specific? I suspect many of the Jews living in Jerusalem in 70 AD were false prophets!

The fellow shown in Revelations 19.

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Who was this false prophet that performed miracles in 70 A.D.? Who are these people that received the mark of the beast? When were they all thrown into the lake of fire?

Identify this false prophet if you will.

3. Where does Scripture say the kingdom will ever be restored to Israel?

This is where you really don't know scripture or prophesy. When Jesus comes the 2nd time, it is not to destroy Jerusalem, but to restore the kingdom. The apostles knew this.

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

There are literally dozens of scriptures that show when the Lord returns he will restore the kingdom and sit on the throne, not destroy it.

Zep 3:15 The LORD hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even the LORD, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more.

4. Where does Scripture say the antichrist will ever sit in a throne in Jerusalem?

This was already shown in 2 Thess 2:4, go back and read again.

5. Where does Scripture say all the nations will come against Jerusalem Jerusalem?

Zech 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Notice Jesus fights for Jerusalem, not against it.

6. If anyone saw Jesus in 70 AD he is daid by now!

Yes, but it would be in countless historical records. Absurd.

7. Tribulation, great or not, is in determined by those who experienced it. Can anything be worse than being dipped in pitch and set ablaze or eaten by wild animals in the Roman Circus?

Yes, being slowly starved and beaten to death in a concentration camp while being forced to do hard labor, being subjected to monstrous medical experiments, and then being gassed to death. Historians estimate about one million Jews died in 70 A.D., over six million were put to death by Hitler alone, plus the Russians also imprisioned and executed many hundreds of thousands of Jews. It was called the Holocaust, look it up.

8. I doubt the Romans counted the number of Jews killed in 70 AD.

Most historians estimate about one million Jews perished in 70 A.D.

9. Where does Scripture say the Mount of Olives will divide?

Zech 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

This is a continuation of the scriptures I showed above which is shown as "the day of the Lord". This is when the Jews in Judea will flee, Christ will open up a valley for them to escape all the nations that are come up against Jerusalem. It is actually very similar as to when the Lord divided the Red Sea to allow the Jews to escape Pharaoh and the Egyptians.

Once again, when Jesus returns he will deliver the Jews and restore the kingdom, not destroy it as was done in 70 A.D.

10. What is the mark of the beast?

Give me a break. You have never heard of the mark of the beast?

Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

I was the one who asked you this question. Show me where in history all of mankind was marked and could not buy or sell without it. I would love to see what this mark looked like if you have a drawing or photo of it.

12. I suspect that some Christians were beheaded by the Romans in 70AD; perhaps even a few by the Jews since they did not care much for Christians. Most Christians were spared during the siege of Jerusalem because they were warned and fled. However, I suspect many dissenters from Rome were beheaded over the centuries and worse.

Didn't he also say they all escaped unharmed? I really don't care what this man says anyway. If he believes Jesus returned in 70 A.D., then he does not know scripture very well.

13. That language is symbolic so don't interpret it literally.

Well, why do you accept only some of the language as literal? You insist when Jesus said generation it meant only the people living at the time. If you are correct, this could have been symbolic language.

So, you pick some scripture to interpret literally, and other scripture you interpret symbolically. Of course, you have to do that, otherwise there is no way you can show all these events happened in 70 A.D.

I answered all your questions, now answer mine.

 

You've answered none of mine so why should I even bother to answer yours any longer?

When you answer mine I'll give you the answers to your newest ones.

 

Convenient excuse. Look, I made a mistake, I thought Old Regular's post was yours. But you can see I did answer it. Look at the questions he posed to me and see how I answered him.

It's getting late again, I won't be on much longer. That is not an excuse, look at the times I posted tonight. I do have a life outside this forum.

I probably have time for one or two questions before I go. Ask quickly (very quickly) and I will try to answer. If not, I'll get back tomorrow.

 

Winman

I made no fantastic claim. I have never said that Jesus Christ returned in 70 AD. Before you make asinine statements you need to make sure that you know to whom you are responding. I simply posed a number of questions based on those you asked to show how ridiculous they were relative to the Judgment of 70 AD.

I do not believe that there was a physical return of Jesus Christ in 70 AD. However, the Judgment of God on Jerusalem that Jesus Christ prophesied in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 did occur in 70 AD so this could certainly be considered a visitation by God.

 

If you saw my last post in response to Grasshopper, I admitted that I mistook your post as a response by him.

He has said several times I don't answer questions, I showed that I do respond when I have time.

And I don't disagree that the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. was a judgement upon the Jews for rejecting Christ. I have believed that for many years before I ever came here.

But Jesus did not come the 2nd time in 70 A.D., that event is still future.