Where Arminians should critique Calvinism

#1. Romans 2 provides BOTH successful and failing cases for BOTH Jews and Gentiles.

#2. Romans 2 SAYS they are ALL judged based on DEEDS and the RESULT of that impartial judgment is that SOME fail and some succeed.

This is a devastating to Calvinism.

#3. Romans 3 is IN the GOSPEL CONTEXT of the kindness and goodness of God - and the call to repentance.

This means that WITHIN the Gospel scenario there IS impartial JUDGMENT that results in SOME having eternal life and some not.

#4. Paul declares that the JUDGMENT is "according to my gospel". The judgment he speaks of is part of the Gospe.

#5. The Judgment results in "JUSTIFICATION" according to the text. It does not simply happen in a Gospel VOID where ALL those judged are condemned because of course - ALL are sinners.

#6. The DEEDS mentioned are the same FRUITs of MAtt 7 that Christ shows as "determining" outcoming.

#7 The ENTIRE thing is said to occur in an impartial manner and is GUARANTEED to be impartial because GOD HIMSELF is impartial when it comes to salvation according to Rom 2:11

Is this what you were looking for in asking about the "deeds" mentioned in Romans 2? Did I forget any of the "deeds" you find there?

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]you posted on another treat that this "deed judgement" as you call it....shows who is saved and who is lost.

so..i have a few other things for ya.

1) when is this deed judgement?

2) your statement above..i clipped..

(((((#2. Romans 2 SAYS they are ALL judged based on DEEDS and the RESULT of that impartial judgment is that SOME fail and some succeed.)))))))

judge for what? are you saying salvation?


3)i clipped this from above....
((((This means that WITHIN the Gospel scenario there IS impartial JUDGMENT that results in SOME having eternal life and some not.)))))

I think you are saying the same thing here....this deed judgement results in some being saved..and some not.

an i right in the way i read you bob?

4)..you say..
((((#5. The Judgment results in "JUSTIFICATION" according to the text. It does not simply happen in a Gospel VOID where ALL those judged are condemned because of course - ALL are sinners.)))))

so justification comes though the good deeds...those that make it though this deed judgement..is that what you are saying?

5)...you keep saying matt 7.
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15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.  21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
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are you saying this is the deed judgement...and this is when we will be saved?

thats all for now..

In christ..james

 

Nope. It says that God executes wrath for violation of the law on Jews and Gentiles.

Further, expand the context and look at verses 4 and 5.

Whose goodness leads us to repentance? Ours? No- God's.

What causes hardness and impenitence worthy of God's righteous judgment and wrath? His election? No. The willful acts of sinners.

The very context of the scripture you are trying to twist states specifically what we have been saying and you have been denying constantly.

God is responsible for providing the goodness through the miracle of regeneration that leads to our belief and salvation... but that does not make Him responsible for those who reject Him.

 

] And "why" do some "succeed"? Refer to the answer provided by verse 4... God's goodness leads us to repentance... Not our merit as is implied in your response above.

If two men having committed equal severity of sin die with one being saved just before death and the other being lost, are you trying to say that God is being impartial by judging one righteous and the other an object of wrath?

Even if your interpretation were correct, your system doesn't escape your trap. That's another thing that bodes well for calvinism. The proofs against arminianism don't undermine calvinism. I have yet to see an arminian post a "proof" against calvinism here that didn't amount to a double standard. You refuse to put your beliefs on the same "balance" that you judge calvinism by.

 

Ahh - this is the place where we discuss Romans 2 -- but it does not have the "partial/impartial" title.

quote:
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Originally posted by BobRyan:
#2. Romans 2 SAYS they are ALL judged based on DEEDS and the RESULT of that impartial judgment is that SOME fail and some succeed.
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The "text says" that the evaluation is done based on deeds.

Did you notice that "in the text"??

So in a future judgment based on deeds - we see the "successes" that Romans 2 lists.

As Daniel 7:22 NASB points out about that future impartial judgment based on deeds when all are judged out of the things written IN the books of record - "Judgment was passed IN FAVOR OF the saints"

Hard to miss.

In Christ,

Bob

 

quote:Bob said
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This means that WITHIN the Gospel scenario there IS impartial JUDGMENT that results in SOME having eternal life and some not.


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Indeed - as Daniel 7:22 points out "Judgment was passed IN FAVOR of the saints"

Nonsense.

I have just shown the texts above that POINT to the clear teaching in God's Word about that IMPARTIAL judgment that results in some saved and some lost.

The point remains.

In Christ,

Bob

 

I am saying that EVEN for the theif on the cross who repents at the LAST minute - there is SEEN to be a DIFFERENCE between him and the one who continues to curse and condemn others.

I am saying that EVEN though one TRIES to prove Christ wrong as He says "BY their fruits you SHALL KNOW THEM" - yet in the future judgment where the books are opened and all judged out of the THINGS written in the books "JUDGMENT is passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22 for the Word of Christ in Matt 7 "IS reliable" as much as some doubt it.

And the rule of Romans 2 "holds true" as much as some doubt it will.

Paul is adamant that there is a future judgment “according to deeds”. Paul here identifies the “impartial” basis of God’s judgment. Instead of His simply “arbitrarily selecting” some to favor and others to ignore – ALL are judged according to deeds IN the context of the “call to repentance” of vs 4.

He speaks of this again in 2Cor 5 talking about future judgment and judged based on deeds “whether they be good or evil”.

Notice that in these first 6 verses we have an Arminian-style motivation - not to engage in man's faulty judgment of others. And there is no sense or expectation that this sin is not to stop or just to continue because we are totally depraved. Rather the argument is to stop.

Further - if this chapter is only about the failing case, only about the wrath of God - then we will not find success, mercy, reward but only condemnation, wrath, punishment. Let's now let the text reveal which way it will go.

Here is the “succeeding case” explicitly listed by Paul. And it is in the context of God - leading to repentance. We also have the people of God - persevering, doing good and seeking glory and honor. What is the result? The text says immortality and eternal life.

Some have supposed that a “judgment” that is impartial as Paul points to in vs 6 and 11 must “only have failing cases”. But Paul shows in vs 7 that such is not the case. The “Good News” does not require God to arbitrarily be “partial to the FEW of Matt 7” as some have supposed. Rather it allows for God to be “impartial” and to SAVE mankind on that basis!

The “Failing case”: Clearly a contrast is being introduced "but to those who are selfish" - contrasted with what? Those who repent, seek eternal glory and honor and persevere. Persevere in what?

You must be on the right path to be approved in perseveringly staying on the right path. It is obvious I know, but worth noting.

So God has now contrasted the good and the wicked, those who persevere on the right path and those who are not even on it.

We already know that in the judgment there are two classes - those that receive immortality and those that do not. If it is not clear to us by now that this chapter is dealing with both classes - we need to engage in some remedial reading comprehension.

</font>[/QUOTE]

 

Deeds judged in that future judgment and the result is (Dan 7:22) "JUDGMENT passed IN FAVOR of the saints" NASB -

1. Romans 2 provides BOTH successful and failing cases for BOTH Jews and Gentiles.

#2. Romans 2 SAYS they are ALL judged based on DEEDS and the RESULT of that impartial judgment is that SOME fail and some succeed.

This is a devastating to Calvinism.

#3. Romans 3 is IN the GOSPEL CONTEXT of the kindness and goodness of God - and the call to repentance.

This means that WITHIN the Gospel scenario there IS impartial JUDGMENT that results in SOME having eternal life and some not.

#4. Paul declares that the JUDGMENT is "according to my gospel". The judgment he speaks of is part of the Gospe.

#5. The Judgment results in "JUSTIFICATION" according to the text. It does not simply happen in a Gospel VOID where ALL those judged are condemned because of course - ALL are sinners.

#6. The DEEDS mentioned are the same FRUITs of MAtt 7 that Christ shows as "determining" outcoming.

#7 The ENTIRE thing is said to occur in an impartial manner and is GUARANTEED to be impartial because GOD HIMSELF is impartial when it comes to salvation according to Rom 2:11

Is this what you were looking for in asking about the "deeds" mentioned in Romans 2? Did I forget any of the "deeds" you find there?

That is Daniel 7:22 again.

Also Rev 14:6-7 making reference to that same impartial judgment.

6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;
7 and he said with a loud voice, "" Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.'

The saints are born-again "saved" prior to the judgment - but the judgment SHOWS who are saved and who are not using the rule of Christ in Matt 7 and explained in Romans 2.

So the books are opened and all are judged but that RESULT of that impartial judgment is that "Judgment is passed in favor of the saints".

With the results that we SEE in Romans 2 based on a judgment of DEEDS that we SEE in Romans 2 -- some saved and some lost.

Yes - just pointing out that the impartial judgment SHOWS some saved and some lost.

That is Romans 2:13 "It is NOT the HEARERS of the Law that WILL be Justified but the DOERS of the LAW will be Justified[/quote]

The wording "in the text" is clear.

And the text of Romans 2 does NOT support the supposed result of "Then all fail".

Rather it anticipates and even STATES the result seen in Dan 7:22 "Judgment passed IN FAVOR of the saints"

"By their fruits you shall know them."

Bad fruit not gathered from a good tree.

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16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?

17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.

19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them. 

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

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Jarthur001

If you want to understand where Bob Ryan is coming from you need to read a book on 7th Day Adventism. I suggest the chapter in The Kingdom of the Cults by Walter Martin, or one of the revisions.

I promise you will be surprised!

 

It is "a little easier than that" -- Just go online and see the official 27 doctrinal statements (recently ammended to 28).

Short form -- (The new ammended list of 28)
http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html


Older Long "book" form --
http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/27/

No need to guess - it is all right there on the net.

In Christ,

Bob

 

just a few more things bob ...


the deed judgement...

1)are all humans there? both saved and lost?

and...

you said.."
Romans 2 provides BOTH successful and failing cases for BOTH Jews and Gentiles."

2)successful as in what?...and failing as in what? what is the purpose of the deed judgement?

you also said...
"So the books are opened and all are judged but that RESULT of that impartial judgment is that "Judgment is passed in favor of the saints".

With the results that we SEE in Romans 2 based on a judgment of DEEDS that we SEE in Romans 2 -- some saved and some lost."

3) RESULTS...what do you mean? do you mean salvation...or damnation? based on the results of the deed judgement?

last... say that dan 7 , rev 14 , matt 7, and roms 2 are all proof text for this deed judgement

4) so..are you saying this is all the same judgement from these text?


Thanks..

In Christ..James

 

BTW..i'll look at this sometime...and get back with ya.

it may be a very days..

In Christ..james

 

The "text says" that the evaluation is done based on deeds.

Did you notice that "in the text"??</font>[/QUOTE] Nope. That is your interpretation facilitated by plucking a phrase out of the context of the passage and also out of the context of the whole of scripture.

Are you saying that evaluation for purpose of salvation is based on "deeds" emanating from man's goodness based on this text? It would seem so.

The text says that deeds will be evaluated. It does not say that these deeds result from the goodness of man that causes him to repent toward God... in fact it says exactly the opposite.

And it is still God working within us to accomplish His will and good pleasure.

Yes. That's why it is so hard to understand why you persistently miss it.

 

Nonsense.

I have just shown the texts above that POINT to the clear teaching in God's Word about that IMPARTIAL judgment that results in some saved and some lost.

The point remains.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]The point fails and you didn't even begin to address my rebuttal. Your hand waving does not constitute a defense.

You have not left God impartial. There are very wicked sinners who are in a place and time to hear the gospel and be saved through no choice of their own. There are very moral people who live and die in a place or time where they can never hear the gospel. If the first responds to the gospel then how can you claim that God has not been partial to them? Could He not have sent a missionary to the 2nd? As a matter of fact, isn't it incumbent upon God (as a completely impartial judge according to your interpretation of Romans 2) to send a witness to this very moral person since their deeds are superior to the wicked person? Absolutely it is.

Your interpretation indicts God if everyone on the face of the earth does not get the exact same opportunity for salvation as everyone else since the fact that they don't renders Him "partial".

 

I am saying that EVEN for the theif on the cross who repents at the LAST minute - there is SEEN to be a DIFFERENCE between him and the one who continues to curse and condemn others.</font>[/QUOTE] That is partiality.

There may have been hundreds hanging on a cross that day in Judea. Why did God choose to put Christ beside this one fellow? The guy didn't ask for it and certainly didn't deserve it.

Scripture always holds true... Your interpretation however fails to account for the context of the passage much less of the whole of scripture.

Salvation is not because of righteousness that we have done.

Judgment against men as sinners... yes. But if partiality means what you suggest- "fairness" then everyone should remain lost or else every should at a minimum get an equal chance to be saved. Neither of these ideas is biblical or factual.

Verse 4 doesn't reference a call to repentance. It says that God actively leads men to repentance... so unless you are saying that this action by God can somehow be ineffective then you are left with calvinism or universalism.

Scripture teaches that our goodness is because of God's work within us.

If you cannot see that it is the goodness of God that leads to repentance and that the specific context of impartiality is as it relates to the universal condemnation of men under the law then you certainly could use some remedial reading comprehension.

BTW, I have no desire to be a smart aleck with you but if you are going to toss it out don't be surprised when it bounces back. I can assure you that my reading comprehension is just fine and is not measured by my level of agreement with your conclusions concerning this passage of scripture.

 

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quote - Bob said --

The "text says" that the evaluation is done based on deeds.

(and so ALL EXAMPLES given IN THE TEXT above are of contrasting DEEDS)

Did you notice that "in the text"??
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Well - that pretty much says it all!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Your attempts to obfuscate AWAY from the details IN Romans 2 are not working. IN Romans 2 it is EXPLICITLY a sequence of CONTRASTS between deeds of ONE type vs another.

The "text says" that the evaluation is done based on deeds.

(and so ALL EXAMPLES given IN THE TEXT above are of contrasting DEEDS)

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AS for the INNER CHANGE from which the GOOD DEEDS come -- Matt 7 - Christ covered that already so your argument is debunked again.

IN Christ,

Bob

 

quote:
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Originally posted by BobRyan:

quote:
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ScottJ
If two men having committed equal severity of sin die with one being saved just before death and the other being lost, are you trying to say that God is being impartial by judging one righteous and the other an object of wrath?

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I am saying that EVEN for the theif on the cross who repents at the LAST minute - there is SEEN to be a DIFFERENCE between him and the one who continues to curse and condemn others.
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You missed the point entirely.

The Calvinist argument was that Christ is wrong in Matt 7 where HE claims that the GOOD tree will be SEEN to show GOOD fruit and by their fruits you shall know them.

The proof is given EVEN with the LAST HOUR conversion as stated above.

You simply attempt to misdirect and obfuscate away from the point AS IF the only way to have a last minute conversion is to have Christ literally crucified next to you.

Misdirection and obfuscation -- at least you do it "consistently".

In Christ,

Bob

 

quote:
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Paul here identifies the “impartial” basis of God’s judgment.
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Indeed - many Calvinists try to "Spin" Romans 2 "AS IF" the Gospel Judgment IT HIGHLIGHTS in Romans 2 CAN only result in ALL LOST. But the TEXT is EXPLICIT in showing DEEDS that are CONTRASTED with rewards that are appropriate to each contrast.

How devastating to your point.

Shall I quote Romans 2 "again"??

In Christ,

Bob

 

Calvinists please note.

When your entire argument is "BASED" on the notion that you can ignore the DETAILS of Romans 2 and just "gloss over them" to spin another story - ALL I have to do is post the chapter's texts "again" and you are debunked "again".

Pick another tactic.

In Christ,

Bob

 

#1. your earlier question did not focus on that point at all as I show below --

#2. Romans 2:13-16 addressed that point AS WELL - (How 'bout them DETAILS!!?).

It talks about those who have NO access to the Word of God and the fact that they may very well BE SAVED while those WITH the Word are lost since some of those WITHOUT it - SHOW the New Covenant promise fulfilled IN THEIR HEART - of the LAW written on their heart. That is to say they are SHOWN to be subjects of the Holy Spirit.


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This was your earlier point - already answered. It was point the SAVING at the LAST MINUTE and how that is IMPARTIAL (judging based on the Romans 2 IMPARTIAL rule of deeds as Christ affirms in Matt 7)