Where does believing faith come from part 2

And I do not call anybody a heretic, only God knows the hearts of men.

I simply showed 2 Peter 2:1

2 Pet 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

What I was trying to show here is that the scriptures prove that Christ also died for the non-elect which contradicts what many Calvinists teach. Because these false prophets and teachers are clearly lost as they are teaching "damnable heresies". Now, I don't know how a person could believe and teach a damnable heresy without being lost.

But then this verse shows that Jesus also bought them by his sacrifice on the cross.

So, to teach that Jesus did not die for the non-elect is unscriptural.

1 Tim 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

1 Timothy 4:10 states clearly that Jesus is the Saviour of all men, but especially those that believe. This shows he is also the potential saviour of the lost.

This is why I do not agree with the Calvinist interpretation of Election. If only those whom God first elected can be saved, then Jesus is not the potential saviour of all men.

But if all men have the ability to believe if they choose to do so, then Christ is the potential savior of all men.

And if God has elected those whom he knew by foreknowledge who would trust on Christ, Jesus is still the potential saviour of all men.

1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Election follows the foreknowledge of God, not the other way around. It is something that God knows beforehand that determines who are the elect. I believe God could see down through time and see who would believe and elected them.

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

You see here that the scriptures show Jesus knew "from the beginning" who they were that believed not. Therefore he also knew from the beginning who would believe. And the scriptures had prophesied about Judas betraying Jesus hundreds of years before it actually occured.

So, this is God's foreknowledge shown right here. And it shows God knows who will believe. That is not the same as saying God determines who will believe, only that he knows beforehand.

 

You are accusing people who believe in the Biblical Doctrines of Grace of heresy. You may deny it but your above post refutes your denial.

 

What I am saying is that those who deny Christ died for the non-elect are non-scriptural. And I have shown scriptures that I believe support this.

Look, I am not exactly sure what you Calvinists believe, you are all over the place. Every time I try to discuss a difference of opinion I am told I do not understand Calvinism. And not every Calvinist seems to agree with each other.

And a heretic is not one who is in error, we are all in error on the scriptures at one time or another. A heretic is one who continues in error after being shown to be in error after two admonitions.

Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

So when you believe a person to be in error, you are supposed to make the attempt to correct him one or two times. If that person will not be corrected, then you are supposed to reject him.

I have simply been trying to show why I believe some doctrines of Calvinism are error. I always present scripture, but rarely does anyone come back and show me where I have misinterpreted the scriptures I present. Mostly I just see the evidence I present ignored, and then get some presentation from a commentary written by a fellow Calvinist.

On the other hand, when you posted a passage from John chapter 3 to argue that God regenerates a man to believe, I pointed out that neither regeneration or even the word faith were mentioned in that particular passage, so that it could not be used to support your doctrine.

I am not infallible, if you believe me to be in error when I present scripture to support my view, please show me. I can handle that, I want to know the truth and understand the proper interpretation of scripture. But I want to know what God is saying, not a man's personal interpretation.

 

Winman

The New Birth and Regeneration are the same thing. You know that or at least you should. You have been told it enough times.

So now after you tell those of us who believe in the Biblical Doctrines of Grace we are wrong two or three times you can call us a heretic. Quit waffling and admit it; you have already said it. Called us heretics that is.

 

You cannot prove that 2 Peter 2:1 is talking about Jesus and that He had bought them with His blood. The verse makes no mention of Jesus nor His blood.

This verse is the only instance where the word "Lord" as rendered in the Greek is the word δεσποτην ("despoten"). All other instances of "Lord" in the New Testament referring to Jesus (including 2 Peter 2:9) is a form of κύριος ("kurios"). If the word were kurios, then you might have an argument. The word despotes is most likely reference to God the Father as the supreme ruler, and not to Jesus Christ.

Also, the word for "bought" is αγορασαντα ("agorasanta") which has to do with being redeemed from a market, which in the case of people would mean slaves.

Let's look at the verse and its context:

Who were "the people" here? The nation of Israel. There were false prophets then that were doing what the false prophets were doing in Peter's day: denying the "Despot" (God) that bought them from slavery.

Peter wrote his epistles to Jewish believers. He reminds them of things they know (1:12), Jesus' coming (1:16), Jesus' Baptism (1:17), and the prophecy of Scripture (1:20-21).

Clearly, based upon the Greek words, the context of the verse, and the verse itself, Peter is talking about false Jewish prophets who were denying the God that bought them out of slavery from Egypt.

No, it does not. The word for "especially" is μάλιστα, which is a superlative that most often explains the specifics of a generality. What he is saying is that God is the Saviour of all peoples, particularly (or most specifically) believers. This verse in no way says that God is a "potential" Saviour of every individual person. It is saying that He is the Saviour of people everywhere--namely, believers.

You believe that those who are of the "non-elect" can actually be saved? Where does the Bible teach that?

Sure. Please explain how one "chooses to believe" something. Either you believe something because it is revealed in such a way to compel affirmation or you do not. I can say all I want that I believe the moon is made of green cheese. However, I would be lying because I do not and cannot believe such a thing. There is nothing to convince me of such a "fact." Believing something is not an "arbitrary choice."

That does not make sense to me. How can Jesus be the "potential Saviour" of every individual person if even His foreknowledge and the Scriptures themselves dictate that not every individual will be saved. regardless of if the foreseen faith is a "free choice." Is Jesus the "potential Saviour" of all the people who were already in hell even before the Crucifixion?

If I know someone, I have some kind of personal relationship with him. You assume that "foreknowledge" is talking about "foreseen faith." The Scriptures never specify that for foreknowledge. When an object is specified, it is always people, not actions. In Greek as well as English, when a person is the direct object of know, it indicates a personal relationship of some kind.

Election is according to God fore-knowing people. It is according to God entering into a personal relationship with people. Those whom God fore-relationshipped, He chose to call them to Himself.

More specifically "from the beginning" here is speaking of His earthly ministry; however, I would not argue that He did know this "from the beginning" of the creation. Also, the word for knew here is εισιν (a form of εἴδω), not a form of γινώσκω. εἴδω is a word for "know" that is specifically for the context of seeing or perceiving.

If this was prophesied and had to happen for Jesus' actual mission to take place, then how is Jesus logically the "potential Saviour" of every individual human being? Why is it even necessary to assert the reality of an alternative reality that could never be reality?

Those who believe are those who were specifically called by God for that purpose (Rom 8:28-30; Rom 9:24; 1 Cor 1:23-24).

 

The above statement is irrational. You are saying that Jesus Christ died for the non-elect. Where do you find Scripture that say Jesus Christ died for the non-elect?

Your problem is that you do not understand what Scripture teaches.

Regeneration was mentioned. You just refuse to recognize it. As I posted earlier the New Birth is Regeneration. I also pointed out that faith was not a prerequisite.

 

I have already posted two verses that support the belief that Jesus died for all men, including the non-elect.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

This verse speaks of false prophets and teachers who shall bring in damnable heresies. The word damnable shows that these men are lost. It is hard to believe that someone who teaches a damnable heresy would not be lost themselves. It then says they will deny the Lord "that bought them". So here we see that Jesus purchased these men with his blood just as he did the church (Acts 20:28).

I also showed 1 Timothy 4:10

1 Tim 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

The word "specially" in this verse shows that it is distinguishing between the saved and unsaved. Jesus died for all men, but especially for the saved.

I could also quote many scriptures that say Jesus died for all men, or for the whole world, but Calvinists always reject these scriptures.

From another perspective, I would like to talk about the Book of Life. The book of life in my opinion contradicts Calvinistic doctrine. I will show the verses and then comment.

Exo 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Now this is a problem for Calvinism, because it contradicts either Election, or Perserverance of the Saints.

1) If only the elect are written in the book of life, then their name can be blotted out, they can lose their salvation.
2) If all men are written in the book of life, and those who sin are blotted out, then the Calvinistic doctrine of Election is violated.

Now, I do not believe you can lose your salvation, in this I agree with Calvinism personally. I believe it is God's desire that all be saved, and that originally all men's name were written in the book of life.

Psa 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

Again, if the Lord blots out someone's name from the book of the living, then originally, or at least beforehand, it had to be there. To blot out means to erase, or to scratch out or cover over.

Phil 4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.

This verse shows that the saved are written in the book of life now.

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

This verse is very important, because the Lord says those who are saved he will not blot out his name out of the book of life. To blot out means to erase, so therefore those whose names were blotted out were originally written in the book of life.

Now this proves that either all men were originally written in the book of life, and that God intended that all be saved, or else it proves that the elect who were written in the book of life can lose their salvation and have their names blotted out.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

This verse does not say that these persons were not at one time written in the book of life. It says their names are not written at this time. Now, if you argue that the unsaved or non-elect were never written in the book of life, then you are left to conclude that the elect who were written in the book of life can have their names blotted out, and therefore they can lose their salvation.

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

This verse would seem to support Calvinism in that it seems to say that the lost were never written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. But if that is true, then it also proves that a person can lose their salvation, because then it would only be the names of the elect that can be blotted out of the book of life.

Personally, I believe this shows God's foreknowledge, him knowing before time who would believe or not. And I personally think the phrase "from the foundation of the world" applies to the book of life, not to those whose names were not written therein. It is saying that these persons are not written in the book of life at the time that this beast appears. I am sure that is debatable.

Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Only those written in the book of life can enter into the New Jerusalem.

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Once again, this shows God will take away some people's names from the book of life.

So, the book of life contradicts Calvinism, because either all people were originally written in the book of life, and then have their names blotted out because they did not overcome (Rev 3:5), or else it is possible to be the elect and have your name written in the book of life, and then later to have it blotted out, showing that you can lose your salvation.

Either way, Calvinism is contradicted here.

 

Winman

If your argument above were valid, which it is not, then none would be eternally saved. There would be no such thing as the perseverance of the saints or the security of the believer.

The Bible does not contradict itself. If it did then we would be, as the Apostle Paul said, of all men most miserable. [1 Corinthians 15:19]

Consider the verse you posted from the Book of Revelation above:

Revelation 3:5. He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Now this passage seems to imply that a person can lose their salvation. But the Bible does, can not, not contradict itself. So consider the following verses which teach the eternal security of those who have been saved:

John 6:35-40, KJV
35. And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The bolded sections in the above Scripture simply show that those given to the Son by the Father, that is the elect, will be saved, granted everlasting life, resurrected on the last day, and nothing can change that truth.

John 10:27-30, KJV
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.
30. I and [my] Father are one.

The bolded sections in the above Scripture shows that those who belong to Jesus Christ, His sheep who are the elect, are given eternal life, shall never perish, and nothing can change that truth.

Romans 8:28-30, KJV
28. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The bolded section in the above Scripture show that those whom God has effectually called will be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ and will be justified and glorified.

So you see that your argument above is not valid.

 

You need a vivid imagination to arrive at the above interpretation of the passage.

 

Benefactor, this is exactly the point I was trying to make. If a saved person cannot lose their salvation (which I have already said I agree with), then those whose names are blotted out are the lost or non-elect. But their names were in the book of life at one time. So they were not chosen to be damned from the beginning of time. This contradicts Calvinism.

And this fits with Romans chapter 1 where God speaks of giving some people up.

Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

It is my belief that all men's names are written in the book of life, but at some point which only God knows, he gives up on them and blots their name out of the book of life.

And why would God have to give up or over men who are already Totally Depraved and non-Elect if Calvinism is true?

 

No, you need a vivid imagination to explain it away. It is clear that men's names are blotted out of the book of life.

Psa 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

Here David under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit prays that these evil persons name's be blotted out of the book of the living. So their names are in the book of life, else David would not make this request.

When the Israelites sinned against God, Moses asked that his name be blotted out, but God said the soul that "sins" will be blotted out.

Exo 32:31 And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

To blot out means to wipe away, or scratch through. It means to erase. So these people's names were in the book of life. And God does not blot out their names without reason. Sin is the reason God blots a man's name out of the book of life.

But the fact people's names are in the book of life and then later blotted out contradicts the Calvinist doctrine of Unconditional Election.

Why would God write the names of men in the book of life which he never intended to save? Now that is not Universalism, because those who do get saved have to meet the condition of believeing on his Son Jesus. But if Jesus died for all men, and is the potential saviour of all men, then God could write their names in the book of life. Now all men can be given the opportunity to trust on Christ if they choose. But if they refuse, then their names would be blotted out.

And this is what the scriptures show. The scriptures in numerous places say Jesus died for all men, not just the elect. But it is only effectual to those that believe.

1 Tim 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

And look what Paul says;

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Here Paul tells believers not to become entangled again in the law, and tells them if they try to justify themselves through the law that Christ has "become of no effect" to them.

So Jesus could be their effectual saviour, but they can fall from God's grace by refusing to trust on Christ alone and depending on the law.

 

That is correct and in accord with Scripture!

Winman you are demonstrating your lack of understanding not only of the Biblical Doctrines if Grace, which you insist on calling Calvinism, but of the Scripture teaching of Salvation itself.

You are, in affect, saying that Calvinists deny the necessity of the atonement. Nothing could be further from the truth. That makes as much sense as me saying you deny the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ because you insist you are the author of your own salvation.

If it were not for the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ no one would be saved. Furthermore, if it were not for God the Father choosing some to salvation in Jesus Christ [election] as taught in Ephesians 1:3-6, no one would be saved.

 

You cannot show one passage of Scripture that indicate the names of all people are written in the Book of Life. Neither can you show one verse of Scripture that, properly understood, teaches that any name in the Book of Life will be removed.

In case you are unaware of it God does not make mistakes!!!!!:godisgood:

 

I agree 100% with you that no person can be saved if not for Christ's sacrifice.

But I disagree with you using Ephesians 1:3-6 to prove your doctrine.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

You see, it is "in him", that is, Jesus Christ that we are chosen or elected. And you see in verse 6 it says that it is Jesus who has made us "accepted".

So, it is conditioned upon believeing in Christ that causes you to be accepted, to become one of the elect.

And God's foreknowledge comes before election. Calvinist's ignore this, but that is what the scriptures say.

1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Now, there is no getting around this, we are elect according to God's foreknowledge. So it is something God knew before time that conditions him choosing us to be the elect. There is much debate on what exactly it is that God knew, but I believe it is that God knew beforehand who would believe. And I have shown scripture that shows that.

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

Jesus knew from "the beginning" who would not believe. Therefore he also knows who will believe. It is clearly stated in scripture whether you like it or not. And I believe it is those that God foresaw who would believe in his Son Jesus who he accepted as the elect.

 

So God is like a disfunctional parent who makes empty threats to punish a disobedient child that he never carries out. What a joke.

Deut 29:18 Lest there should be among you man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turneth away this day from the LORD our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations; lest there should be among you a root that beareth gall and wormwood;
19 And it come to pass, when he heareth the words of this curse, that he bless himself in his heart, saying, I shall have peace, though I walk in the imagination of mine heart, to add drunkenness to thirst:
20 The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven.

So, God was just saying this, but he didn't really mean it. He likes to make empty threats. Or else, maybe none of the children of Israel ever turned away from him and served false gods. Yep, we know that never happened.

 

You may disagree but you are wrong. Ephesians 1:3-6 clearly teach that before the foundation of the world certain were chosen by God the Father in God the Son who as Jesus Christ would suffer for the sins of those chosen unto salvation in Himself.

You completely misinterpret verse 6. All the words he and himself in the above passage refer to God the Father.

1. It is God and Father who blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ.

2. It is God and Father who chose us in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world.

3. It is God the Father who predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself.

4. Therefore, it is God the Father who makes us accepted in the beloved, Jesus Christ.

Where in the above Scripture is faith in Jesus Christ given as a precondition.

I wouls also note that no one who believes in the Doctrines of Grace would deny that faith in Jesus Christ is not a requirement for salvation. It is just that that faith is the gift of GOD. [Ephesians 2:8]

You misunderstand what is meant by the foreknowledge of God. That has been explained to you numerous times.

Obviously Jesus Christ knew beforehand who would believe. After all He was God. Obviously He knew those whom the Father had chosen to salvation in Jesus Christ, the Incarnate God.

 

1 Pet 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

All you have to do is read a few verses further and you will see it. And verse 9 shows that salvation or regeneration follows faith, not the other way around as you believe. It says receiving "the end of your faith", even the "salvation of your souls".

So of course, it has to be me in error, there is no possibility of you being in error is there? That's a great attitude you have.

Wow, you turned that around 180 degrees to say the very opposite of what it really says. It says we are elect according to the foreknowlegde of God. And I have showed you that Jesus knew "from the beginning" who would believe and who would not. So I believe God chose those who he knew would believe to be the elect. If not this, then there has to be something else God foreknew about us, because we are elected according to his foreknowledge. So obviously there is some sort of condition to being one of the elect.

But you turn it completely around and say God choose who to save, and then gave them faith. Incredible.

1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

I know Calvinist's do not like this verse, but it is not going away. Try believeing what is says and not the opinions of men.