Where does believing faith come from part 4

Amniotic fluid cannot be the water that one must be born again from precisely because it is flesh. The spiritual birth has nothing to do with the flesh. It is 100% spiritual. If we are born again by the flesh (amniotic fluid) then we will never see God.

1Cr 15:50 ¶ Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

The water refers to the cleansing of sin which God alone does.

When we are born again, we not only receive new life, but we are cleansed from sin so that our new life is clean, sin free and eternal.

Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.


Water is a symbol of God's forgiveness.

 

I believe there are verses to show that the word water in John 3:5 is speaking of the word of God.

Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

The scriptures say we are sanctified and cleansed by the word of God. It is compared to the washing of water.

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Jesus prayed that we might be sancrified. How? Through the truth, the word of God. The word of God is necessary to be born again. Yes, it is the Holy Spirit that quickens us, but to receive the Spirit you must first hear and believe the word of God. And how do we get faith? By hearing the word of God.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The scriptures do not say the Holy Spirit regenerates a person to believe, they very specifically say faith comes by hearing the word of God. You receive the Spirit after you hear the word of God and believe.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

We receive the Spirit by the hearing of faith. So this shows that faith is not a gift of the Spirit. It is just the opposite, the Holy Spirit is the gift given to those who hear and believe.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Here Peter shows receiving the Holy Spirit is conditioned upon repenting, that is turning from unbelief and trusting in Jesus for the remission of sins.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

This is the most specific verse in the scriptures showing the order of events in salvation. First you hear the gospel, second, you believe the gospel, and third, you receive the Holy Spirit. This contradicts Calvinist and Doctrine of Grace doctrine. They believe that a man has no ability to desire to hear the word of God, and no ability to have faith in the word of God unless he is first regenerated by the Holy Spirit. This in effect says a person is born again before hearing the word of God. But the scriptures teach that we are born again by the word of God.

1 Pet 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Here the word of God is compared to seed, just as Jesus compared the word of God to seed in the parable of the sower. Jesus showed that the word must be received by the hearer to spring to life.

Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

You must do more than just hear the word of God, you must believe it and keep it. Only then will it bring forth fruit.

Luke 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

So, the Holy Spirit is necessary for a man to be born again. It is the Holy Spirit that quickens. But we must first hear and believe the word of God to receive the Holy Spirit. This is why I believe Jesus said we must be born again of water (the word of God) and the the Spirit.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Jesus is very clear here, he says we must be born of water and of the Spirit, so both are necessary. And notice the water is mentioned first in order.

 

The Calvinists and Doctrines of Graces despise any idea that man plays a part in his salvation, but it is shown over and over again in scripture.

Matt 21:14 And the blind and the lame came to him in the temple; and he healed them.

Now this is an amazing verse if you stop and really think about it. Does it say Jesus went to the blind and lame? No, it says they came to him. Now that is amazing, that a blind person who could not see, and the lame who could not walk would find a way to come to Jesus, but they did. And it is when they came that he healed them.

Now, why would they come to Jesus in the first place? Obviously they had heard the fame of Jesus, how he could miraculously heal people. And it is obvious they believed this, because they made a way to seek him out and find him, to come to him.

Mark 1:40 And there came a leper to him, beseeching him, and kneeling down to him, and saying unto him, If thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

Who came to whom here? The leper came to Jesus. And it is shown he had faith when he came. He also must have heard the fame of Jesus and believed Jesus could heal him of his disease. Faith comes by hearing.

Sickness and disease are pictures of sin. The healings Jesus performed are a picture of salvation. In all examples shown in scripture, a person came to Jesus while still in a diseased state. This shows that the unregenerate has the ability to hear and believe in Jesus, and if they come to him he will heal them.

It is shown we must come to Jesus in our diseased state. It is only then that he will heal us.

Hos 5:13 When Ephraim saw his sickness, and Judah saw his wound, then went Ephraim to the Assyrian, and sent to king Jareb: yet could he not heal you, nor cure you of your wound.
14 For I will be unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: I, even I, will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue him.
15 I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.

Hos 6:1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.

You see, we have to come to Christ to be healed. We come to him while we are sick and diseased, and he heals us. And this is a picture of the sinner. We are not regenerated to come to the Lord, we come to the Lord while still dead in sins and he heals and makes us alive. This is always the example shown in scripture.

Some may not like the idea that man plays a role in his salvation, but that is clearly what is always shown in scripture. In fact, if you do not come to Jesus you will be lost.

John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Jesus does not give you life and then you come to him as some here teach. No, it is exactly the opposite, you come to Christ and then he gives you life.

 

You exposition is flawed. Even you admit that your own exposition would be "an unnecessary repetitive use of the Holy Spirit."
Then you just jump in and insert whatever you want: grace, justice, holiness, mercy, wrath of God, whatever. What did you choose? Grace was it? But no reason given for it. It was just random. For John 7:38,39, as you clearly state and admit, speak of the Holy Spirit, not grace. Grace is your idea, not the Bible's.

 

Old Regular posted:

You quote the very verse that proves your doctrine completely false. John 7:39 shows that people who were believing at the time had not received the Holy Spirit yet, so how could the Holy Spirit have regenerated them to believe?

John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

As I posted before, there are numerous accounts in the scriptures before Jesus was glorified that showed people believed on him. They could not have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit to do this, because the Holy Spirit was not yet given to believers.

John 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

And why did they believe? Because of Jesus's words. This was before Jesus was glorified, they did not have the Holy Spirit, yet they believed and the scriptures say so.

You have a total disregard for scripture. You accept scripture you like, and ignore scripture that proves your doctrine error. Reminds me of king Jehoiakim who cut out the words of Jeremiah and burned them in the fire because he did not like what they said. And they weren't the least bit afraid or concerned when they did this.

Jer 36:22 Now the king sat in the winterhouse in the ninth month: and there was a fire on the hearth burning before him.
23 And it came to pass, that when Jehudi had read three or four leaves, he cut it with the penknife, and cast it into the fire that was on the hearth, until all the roll was consumed in the fire that was on the hearth.
24 Yet they were not afraid, nor rent their garments, neither the king, nor any of his servants that heard all these words.
25 Nevertheless Elnathan and Delaiah and Gemariah had made intercession to the king that he would not burn the roll: but he would not hear them.
26 But the king commanded Jerahmeel the son of Hammelech, and Seraiah the son of Azriel, and Shelemiah the son of Abdeel, to take Baruch the scribe and Jeremiah the prophet: but the LORD hid them.
27 Then the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, after that the king had burned the roll, and the words which Baruch wrote at the mouth of Jeremiah, saying,
28 Take thee again another roll, and write in it all the former words that were in the first roll, which Jehoiakim the king of Judah hath burned.
29 And thou shalt say to Jehoiakim king of Judah, Thus saith the LORD; Thou hast burned this roll, saying, Why hast thou written therein, saying, The king of Babylon shall certainly come and destroy this land, and shall cause to cease from thence man and beast?
30 Therefore thus saith the LORD of Jehoiakim king of Judah; He shall have none to sit upon the throne of David: and his dead body shall be cast out in the day to the heat, and in the night to the frost.
31 And I will punish him and his seed and his servants for their iniquity; and I will bring upon them, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and upon the men of Judah, all the evil that I have pronounced against them; but they hearkened not.

 

DHK

Your devious response above is untrue. And I still think you should step down as moderator given your attitude!

I said:

 

What I said was not untrue at all. If you have a complaint about moderation than you can contact the administration or another moderator. Any further public complaints will be deleted.

Like I previously said, one can choose from a random list and insert anything they like: grace, justice, holiness, etc. Your method of hermeneutics is lacking. You do not connect "water" with anything. You start well using John 7 showing how it could refer to the Holy Spirit, but then you jump from there to "grace" without any connection. Why not another attribute like justice or holiness?

You have correctly defined grace. What does the Bible say about grace.
Jesus said that God makes the sun to shine on the just and the unjust. That is grace.
He makes the rain to come upon the just and the unjust. That is grace.
Grace is free unmerited favor. Your paradigm doesn't fit.

Again, none of the verses that you quoted have any connection to "water" of John 3:5. I gave at least half a dozen verses linking "water" to the Word of God. Comparing Scripture with Scripture is a must in Bible study.

I won't go through the entire post again. I will simplify it for you. It is not hard to comprehend. Here is the verse:

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
--We all agree that we must be born of the Holy Spirit.
Now what does the water mean?
This is the only other agent that Christ mentions. One must be born of the Spirit and of________________

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
--One is born again of the Word of God.

This is where the answer is given. There are two agents whereby a person is born again. One is the Word of God, and the other is the Holy Spirit. The connection is made by Christ, who said:

John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
--Water is a cleansing agent. See Psalm 119:9. It is the Word that cleans, washes. It is through the Word that one is born again. It is through the Holy Spirit that one is born again. There is no other way.
If one does not hear the gospel he cannot be saved; thus the Word.
If one is not convicted of his sin he cannot be saved; thus the Holy Spirit.
Both are needed to be born of God.

 

You are just as entitled to a screwed up interpretation as anyone. You are wrong on dispensationalism, you are wrong on the Doctrines of Grace, you are wrong on your interpretation of the new birth. Is there anything you are correct about.

May I finally say without fear that you will delete it that God did not expect you to check your brain when you interpret Scripture!