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Where Does Believing Faith Come From

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Benefactor, Oct 16, 2009.

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  1. jcjordan

    jcjordan New Member

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    Winman, why is it that you have faith and others don't?
     
  2. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    That is not the point of the parable. What does Jesus tell his disciples when they came to him afterward? And I think it is important to note that they did not understand this parable any more than unbelievers, they had to come later and ask him to explain it.

    Luke 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

    This is the very last thing Jesus said to his disciples. He told them to be very careful how they hear, and what they hear. So what you hear and believe is in your control, not his. And he says to those that will listen and believe what he says, to them more will be given or revealed. But to those who refuse to receive his words, even that little that was given them shall be taken away.

    Carico, the sower gave the same seed to all hearers. The seed was the word of God, and the same seed was sowed to all. The difference was the hearers, which Jesus carefully explains.

    The wayside was hard and walked on. Seed cannot penetrate soil like this. This is those that absolutely refuse to listen.

    The soil with rocks was those that hear, but in times of persecution fall away. I myself do not necessarily believe these folks are lost, but they will never produce fruit. But they did spring up into life.

    The soil with thorns are those that hear but let the cares of this life distract them away. Again, I believe these are saved, but they also will produce no fruit and receive little reward in heaven.

    But the good soil is those that receive the seed with a good and honest heart. Now, I didn't say that, Jesus did.

    Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

    Now, because you are biased by Calvinistic teaching, you have to believe their heart was regenerated to believe. But this verse mentions no such thing. In fact the Bible shows numerous times that the unsaved can seek God.

    The Philipian jailer was unsaved but sought God.

    Acts 16:29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
    30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
    31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
    32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
    33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.


    The Philipian jailer wasn't regenerated, because Paul told him he needed to believe. And how could he believe on Jesus if he had never heard of Jesus? And notice that afterward Paul spoke unto him the word of the Lord, and that after hearing God's word he believed and was baptized.

    And the rich young man was unsaved but sought God.

    Matt 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
    17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
    18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
    19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
    21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
    22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
    23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
    24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.


    This young man was unsaved, yet he wanted to know how to have eternal life. Notice also that Jesus said this young man knew the scriptures. Now, I hardly think Jesus was lying when he said this, so this proves that the unsaved can understand the scriptures to a degree.

    But why didn't this young man get saved? Because he loved his wealth and money more than God. He could not give up his wealth and possessions which are for the present only to receive greater riches in the life to come.

    So, this young man went away unsaved. He was not regenerated, yet he desired eternal life.

    And you yourself said you wanted to believe the Bible for years. So your own experience contradicts the doctrines of Calvinism. So why you would want to cling to a doctrine that the scriptures and your own experience proves false is beyond me.
     
    #102 Winman, Oct 17, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 17, 2009
  3. Carico

    Carico New Member

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    You need to finish that passage. The disciples asked "then how can anyone be saved?" Jesus answered; "With man this is impossible. But with God, all things are possible."

    So no, man cannot save himself any more than his sinful nature which is contrary to God can have faith in God. It's impossible because as 1 Corinthians 2:11 says, "In the same way, no one can understand the mind of God without the Spirit of God." And one cannot believe something he doesn't understand.
     
  4. AresMan

    AresMan Active Member
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    Does everyone who who experiences auditory input into their ears then have saving faith? This verse says that "hearing" comes by the Word of God. Therefore, the "hearing" is not mere auditory input, but effectual listening. The Word of God, as God uses it for His purpose, causes "hearing." This "hearing" causes faith. This is the kind of "hearing" in this verse:
    Although the multitudes had working ears to process auditory input, they did not "hear" Jesus' words. They did not understand the message.

    Romans 10:17 represents an effectual act of God. God uses His word to bring hearing to people. This hearing results in saving faith.

    The result of faith is justification, which is also called "saved" because it is the moment that determines standing.

    Did Jesus mean that she was the originator of her own faith or the possessor of it? It does not say. A possessive does not necessarily indicate an arbiter, but only indicates a possessor. You cannot prove that the woman generated her own faith from a libertarian will from this verse. Other verses in Scriptures may indicate how one has faith.

    Faith comes before justification, that is true. However, just because faith precedes justification, does not mean that faith precedes regeneration.

    This verse does not prove your position.

    Titus 3:5 can just as much prove regeneration before faith as you think it would prove after.

    Regeneration is the same as being born again (again = re, born = generation). One does not choose to be born, but one does make choices based upon one's birth/nature. When one is regenerated, one then naturally has faith. This faith is then the pecuniary means by which God justifies the sinner and imputes His righteousness. And, before you make a comment about "regenerate unbelievers" I believe that regeneration and saving faith are chronologically simultaneous. The washing of regeneration is like a gun trigger and saving faith is like the projectile. My order of salvation is:

    1. election/predestination for sanctification
    2. effectual call/regeneration
    3. saving faith (#2 and #3 are simultaneous, but #2 causes #3)
    4. justification
    5. sanctification
    6. glorification
     
  5. Benefactor

    Benefactor New Member

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    Funny, Paul said faith comes from hearing. What can I say? Just believe what Paul tells us. Hear, believe, saved
     
  6. AresMan

    AresMan Active Member
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    Not if you are a compatibilist. ;)
     
  7. Carico

    Carico New Member

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    Funny, you have to put all scripture together or you are misquoting God. So put that verse from Paul together with Ephesians 2:8-9, 1 Corinthians 2:14, and 12:9, and you get, one first has to hear the world of God. Then he needs to receive the Holy Spirit to believe.

    So you cannot take verses out of context with the rest of the bible or you are misquoting God.
     
  8. Benefactor

    Benefactor New Member

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    Amen: That is a slam dunk.
     
  9. Carico

    Carico New Member

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    So then you believe that faith comes from the sinful nature. is that correct? :laugh:

    If so, God disagrees with you in Romans 8:7, "the sinful mind is hostile to God, it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so."

    And Galatians 5:17, "for the sinful nature does what is contrary to the Spirit." And faith is a fruit of the Spirit. So you have again not only contradicted much scripture, your claims don't even make sense by human reasoning! :rolleyes:
     
  10. AresMan

    AresMan Active Member
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    There is not just determinism and free will. There is also compatibilism (or "soft determinism") in the middle. Compatibilist free will says that man is free to choose whatever he wants most in every situation. Man always does what he wants in the parameters of the circumstances. No one is coerced to choose contrary to one's own volition. However, one's nature, among other things, limits one's volition. You cannot tell me that one has "libertarian free will" because the Bible is full of verses that present a dichotomy of the natures of the regenerate and the unregenerate, and uses terms such as "bound," "servant," "slave," "cannot," etc.

    Libertarian free will must explain the logic behind arbitrary choices. LFW adherents argue that one cannot be responsible or culpable unless one has the real possibility within himself to have made an alternative choice for every choice made. However, if choices are completely arbitrary, then motivation is not the determining factor; thus, one has grounds to plead insanity because he did not act according to his motivation. Compatibilist free will says that man always makes choices out of motivation. One does what he most wants. One, therefore, is responsible.

    I don't think you were getting the gist of what he was saying. You are micro-analyzing his illustration. He was merely trying to make the point that God can effectually change one's nature from a servant of sin to a servant of righteousness, while not coercively dictating his actions. One's nature is a boundary to one's choices, and one will choose freely, volitionally, and with purpose and motivation according to desires based upon one's nature.

    I really do not see how he argued such a case implicitly or logically. Changing one's nature from depraved to regenerate and one making free choices based upon his nature in no way compares to God coercing, forcing, or tricking one to make specific actions as if one did not do what he really wanted to do.

    Of course. That does not mean that one has complete libertarian freedom of the will. There are constrains. Are you a pelagian?

    One always does exactly what he most wants to do in the circumstances of every situation. Therefore, one is responsible for his actions (unless he is insane) because every action has a purpose and a motivation. Do you not acknowledge that limitations exist upon the range of choices one cna choose volitionally?
     
  11. Benefactor

    Benefactor New Member

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    AresMan

    Greetings, AresMan if there exist knowedge that you don't know what is that to you?
     
  12. Carico

    Carico New Member

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    God establishes all earthly authorities. But maybe the bible is wrong. Maybe anyone who wants to be a world leader can be a world leader if he makes the right choices. So says the secular world that's ruled by Satan. ;)
     
  13. AresMan

    AresMan Active Member
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    The verse says that "the washing of regeneration and renewing" is the cause and "saved" is the effect. Therefore, they precede "saved." In this case, saved logically means justified. Regeneration precedes justification.

    Now, does regeneration precede faith? First, do we see anywhere in Scripture that regeneration and faith show up together? Is there anywhere that says that regeneration follows faith? We see verses where justification follows faith.

    I see no mention of faith here. However, there is a mention of being saved by regeneration. Effectively, God used regeneration to bring about our salvation.

    Wow, this sounds a lot like Romans 8:28-20. It also sounds like a done deal. It sounds like regeneration. It sounds like regeneration is what quickened us from being "dead in sins." Thus, being awakened to spiritual life, we then have the capacity to exercise saving faith inevitably from our new nature, which is the pecuniary grounds for justification.

    Grace is targeted, and grace involves regeneration, faith, justification, sanctification, and glorification.
     
  14. AresMan

    AresMan Active Member
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    :confused: I do not understand this statement. I guess that is "knowledge that don't know." ;)
     
  15. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    That Scripture and rationale have been presented ad infinitum but to no avail. There are simply some who believe their sovereignty in salvation trumps that of GOD!
     
  16. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    Ever read the second line of my signature? :rolleyes:;)
     
  17. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Those examples present a very poor concept of saving faith.

    I wonder if you lived prior to FDIC whether you would have so much faith in banks! I wonder if you ever drove a car with mechanical brakes whether you would compare faith in those brakes to saving faith!
     
  18. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    He won't or can't answer that question but I can. GOD gave it to him!
     
  19. AresMan

    AresMan Active Member
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    There is a difference among the Holy Spirit "falling upon" someone in the Old Testament, regenerating someone (Old and New Testaments?), and the Holy Spirit indwelling and sealing someone (New Testament, after faith and upon justification). Regeneration and indwelling/sealing are not the same thing.

    The Holy Spirit was beginning His ministry in the early church and acted slightly differently from Pentecost. There was a time when the apostles could give the Holy Spirit by laying on of hands. Eventually, the Holy Spirit simply indwells and seals all believers upon justification. However, regeneration to spiritual life, and indwelling and sealing are two different acts of the Holy Spirit.

    No. Faith comes by hearing (understanding) and hearing comes by the Word of God. So many misread this verse.
    No disagreement here. The Holy Spirit regenerates, then the regenerate exercises saving faith, then the believer is justified, then the Holy Spirit indwells and seals them.

    Yup. That is how the Holy Spirit operated in the early church. However, don't confuse regeneration with indwelling/sealing.

    The Holy Spirit ministered differently in the early church as I mentioned earlier.

    Faith comes by hearing. Hearing comes by the word of God. If hearing simply means auditory input, then anyone who has working ears in the presence of a Gospel presentation will exercise saving faith. This is not the case, and hearing here means listening, understanding, and heeding.

    Here, Jesus was talking to His disciples specifically about how their ministry in the early church as apostles.

    Regeneration and indwelling/sealing are different.

    Regeneration and indwelling/sealing are different.

    Regeneration and indwelling/sealing are different.
     
  20. AresMan

    AresMan Active Member
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    Please explain the logic behind choices in Libertarian Free Will.
     
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