Where has this gotten you?

They are synonymous, Precepts! That is what I am trying to tell you! Any first year Hebrew student knows what Synonymous Parallelism is! The word "synonymous" means "synonymous." Synonymous Parallelism says they are synonymous and you say they are not! Who do I believe? You, who apparently knows no Hebrew at all, or the Hebrew of Psalms 78 which is clearly written in Synonymous Parallelism? Well, sorry, but you lose!

That distinction exists only in your mind! The word "deceive" means to "be deceptive." They were deceptive in their relationship with God.

I am not forcing the scripture. I am believing the scripture. Synonymous Parallelism is part of Psalm 78. I know it. Every first year Hebrew student knows it. Every little Jewish boy who attends Hebrew classes in preparation for his Bar Mitzvah knows it. God knows it! The KJV translators knew it! They translated "pathah" "deceive" 8 times and "flatter" only twice! In fact, just about everybody knows it except you! Why not just admit you picked a poor example to prove how "corrupt" the "modern versions" are, and try again?

 

Thanks for your study, skanwmatos. Very nice insight on Psalm 78.

 

Precepts, over 1400 post since Dec '03. You are most entertaining in "knowing more" than Skanwmatos, BrianT, ScottE, HankD, Pastor Larry, Pastor Kevin, Archy, Alcott, Robycop(Cranston) etc...you are "stalking" this board!
Your friend and buddy and pal,
Orville "Popcorn" Redenbacker.

 

I find it even more amazing that you deny the very bible you claim to believe.

And now, wise in your own eyes, you deny the very bible you claim to believe. You say:

Yet the KJV clearly says

Once again you deny the very bible you claim to believe. God said "flatter him with their mouth" = "lied unto him with their tongues" but you say that is not true. You call God and His word a liar. That is one of the saddest posts I have ever read on this forum.

 

The point is, GOD KNOWS LIP SERVICE FROM TRUE INTENT! Those people were deceiving THEMSELVES into believing they'd fooled God. They were like some modern worshippers who say to themselves, "I don't need to waste my time serving God. A few 'praise ye the Lord, hallelujahs' & He'll be happy, and my fellow man will see what a great Christian I am."

 

Peace and love to you all in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour!

It really still amazes me (the allusion that the KJV has errors), that the focus is upon the 421 changes, and 126 being substantial, (which the examples given hardly fit that description)in the KJV, and yet have you done the comparisons and substantial changes that have been done to the modern versions? How is it that those of you who support the mv's can claim that God has preserved his word? How is it that you have faith in that? How is it that you think that Satan could not, nor would not, nor has corrupted God's word?
How is it that one should approach and handle the translation process? Do scholars of the day, have a better take on this because of their methods and education? Or, rather does faith and the Holy Spirit of God have anything to do with this?

I do not see a problem with a church using one translation of the Bible. I have explained this before, my reasons why I believe this. I suppose the reason you are experiencing problems Tiny Tim, is because your church is connected to other churches through an association, and the authority of the Pastors, have been given over to the mob mentality, rather than God. This is part of the problem it looks to me. What one's church preference is in the Bible they desire to teach from, should be up to the pastor and the congregation of the church, even though I strongly believe that the church would be a much healthier church in using the KJV. No one has a right to tell a person which version they MUST use. I am in agreement with you all on this. If one desires to read, learn and be taught from the KJV, it is one's responsibility to seek out that church (which is very difficult to find these days - I know, for this was my desire to seek a KJV using church- praise God he led me to find one!)and vise-versa. In my area, most churches around here use the modern versions. It is very hard to find a bible believing, fundamental, KJV church in this area. Those churches that allow the use of the modern versions, it is evident that these same churches are also becoming apostate- giving over to the methods of man for evangelical means, counseling, and ecumenical involvements, and not God's ways as indicated in his word of truth. It is a sad sight to see, but of course, it is their own choice. If the blind follow the blind, they both fall into the ditch. A little bit of leaven, leaveneth the whole lump of dough.

Remember this also:

2 Thess. 2:3

3 Let no man decieve you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

and...

1 Timothy 4:1-13,16
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocracy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4 For every creature of God, is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
6 If thou put the bretheren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.
7 But refuse profane and old wives fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.
8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.
9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acception.
10 For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
11 These things command and teach.
12 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.
13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine....
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Peace and love to you all in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour!

Hiya Brother Ricky! I agree with the truth you are sharing 100%.

In Psalm 78:36 we read:

Nevertheless they did flatter him with their mouth, and they lied unto him with their tongues.

Flatter: 1 to praise insincerely 2 to try to please, as by praise 3 to make seem more attractive than is so 4 to gratify the vanity of

deceive: 1 to make (a person) believe what is not true; mislead

Now everyone knows, that when dealing with the understanding of a word given, the first definition of the word is almost always the intended and best definition, and according to the "context" of the passage, and the "nature" of God Almighty himself, and "nature" of man himself, the first definition is the best, and decieve does NOT AT ALL belong in this text.

Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Peace and love to you all in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour!

robycop, you are entitled to your own opinion, however I highly disagree with your opinions concerning that of David Cloud and his ministry. He is and has been blessed by God, believes, lives and teaches the truth of the word of God. I know all about his website, and his articles, and the Lord Jesus Christ has blessed me greatly through his ministry. I praise and thank God always for men like him. I may not agree with everything he says, but I do agree with most things, and how do I know he is speaking truth? Because of the unity of Spirit, not by man, or man's methods, but of God and by God, and from learning and knowing the word of God.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Peace and love to you all in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour!

Skanw,

I appreciate the efforts and information you provided in your posts, however I strongly disagree with your conclusion. It seems as though you put the "methods of man" above that of the Holy Spirit, which is causing you to error in understanding the truth and are unable to see the error in this. God's holy and pure word of truth, and all who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit EXHALT GOD, and not the opposite. This is not done by our own efforts Skanw, but by and of the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit inspired men to write what they wrote, and so therefore the Holy Spirit would inspire the exhaltation of God, not the opposite of that. To imply, or relay a word "decieve" which does not properly apply to this verse in this context, nor to the nature and character of God, nor to the message about those Israelites, is evident of "man's methods" rather than the Holy Spirit. I am terribly sad, that you cannot, nor will not see this very important, but simple truth. Your own wisdom is overriding that of the wisdom of the Holy Spirit, it seems.

Here I will also repeat a quote of Precepts, that really hits to the core of all those who think because they are scholarly, they know better:


Precepts quote:
Good study though, it's just to we who aren't so educated can understand "flatter" doesn't mean deceive like yall do. Funny thing, huh?
--------------------------------------------------

Hope you didn't mind that Precepts.

May the Lord continue to richly bless you Skanw, and all here on this thread.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Peace and love to you all in Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior!

The word "flatter" is in reference to their worship and praise toward God, and they uttered lies with their tongues as a result of this insincere worship. True worship and praise comes from the heart, and since their hearts were not in true worship, this caused their lying tongues. They professed something that was not sincere, and this is the definition of flattery, not deceive, nor deception. They probably thought they were truly worshipping the Lord, but it was only flattery. The usage of the word deceive in this passage does not denote worship, nor gives an accurate understanding of this important meaning.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

The word "flatter" is in reference to their worship and praise toward God, and they uttered lies with their tongues as a result of this insincere (deceitful) worship. True worship and praise comes from the heart, and since their hearts were not in true worship (they were being deceitful), this caused their lying tongues. They professed something that was not sincere (they were deceitful), and this is the definition of flattery, deceit, and deception. They probably thought they were truly worshiping the Lord, but it was only deceitful flattery. The usage of the word deceive in this passage denotes insincere, deceitful worship, and gives an accurate understanding of this important meaning.

 

Peace and love to you all in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour!

Skanw,

Please look up the meanings of the word flatter and decieve, or look at my earlier posts. To decieve is to make (a person)(God in your case, who is not a person, but God almighty who knows the hearts of men) believe what is not true. These Israelites did not MAKE God Almighty believe what was not true. Therefore this word does not belong in this verse. Did you read or comprehend any of the other parts of my posts? Those that support the mv's corruptions will go to any lengths to excuse what you should know in your heart to be wrong. Why do you do this? Do you have to feel as though you are right all the time? If so, how then were you ever able to come to the foot of the cross of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ?

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Precepts, I'm just "stalking" you b/c it's fun to give you some of your own medicine I thought you could dish it out and take it too . No, I don't react this way to every member of the BB to annoy, just the ones who give my alot of ammo, namely willie and ye. Remember: KJVO=kjbo

 

Peace and love to you all in Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior!

robycop,

You said:

"The point is, GOD KNOWS LIP SERVICE FROM TRUE INTENT! Those people were deceiving THEMSELVES into believing they'd fooled God. They were like some modern worshippers who say to themselves, "I don't need to waste my time serving God. A few 'praise ye the Lord, hallelujahs' & He'll be happy, and my fellow man will see what a great Christian I am."
--------------------------------------------------

I couldn't agree with you more! However, you are misquoting and misunderstanding that verse of scripture when you attribute that word to "themselves". It is indeed directed toward Him, who is God Almighty.

Psalm 78:36

36 Nevertheless THEY did flatter HIM with their mouth, and THEY lied unto HIM with their tongues.
(my emphasis)

Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

I did. I even posted them. The people of Israel were deceitful in their public display of devotion to God.

What! God is not a Person! Of course He is! God is not only A Person, He is Three Persons on ONE!

Nobody has said they did. That distinction exists only in your own mind.

God said, via Synonymous Parallelism, which He used to inspire it, that it does belong. You can call God a liar all you want, but don't stand near me when you do so, as I don't want to be struck by the lightening bolt.

Yes, I read and comprehended them. And saw that you are simply wrong.

I know in my heart, according to the inspiration of the word of God by the Holy Spirit, that you are wrong, and you will go to any lengths to excuse what you should know in your heart is wrong, but, because you are caught up in the terrible error of KJVOism you can no longer think for yourself but must parrot the words of those who taught you this terrible error. You have been robbed of your Christian Liberty by a wolf in Shepherd's clothing and you can no longer "rightly divide the word of truth" nor can you understand that "no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."

Because God has commanded me, in Proverbs 26:5 "Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit." I am commanded by the word of God to correct your error and try as hard as I can for you to see the truth of God's word so that you will no longer be "wise in your own conceit."

No, unlike you, I don't have an ax to grind. I hate every evil way, and untruth is the very heart of evil, and KJVOism is centered squarely in the deepest well of evil.

I rest in Christ by grace through faith. I believe His word the same way. I know what God inspired and I will defend His inspired word against all those, such as you, who openly deny it, attack it, add to it, take away from it, and generally hate and despise it. That is my calling in life.

May the grace of God touch your sinful heart.

 

Not necessarily. All words have ranges of meaning, and we have to let the context determine their meaning.

From the Compact Edition (There's a real joke for you--it takes all my strength to drag it out and a magnifying glass to read it) Oxford English Dictionary:

deceive:

1. To ensnare, to take unawares by craft or guile....(Nope! Can't be the right definition in this case because anyone with half a brain knows you can't catch God off guard.)

2. To cause to believe what is false.....(Can't be that one, either, same sort of reasoning for rejecting meaning #1)

3. To be or prove false to, play false....(Well, there's one that'll work!)

Let's try the same thing with flatter:

1. To show delight or fondness....(Well, this one won't work. These people weren't REALLY fond of God.)

2. To try to please or win the favour of....(Maybe, sort of, but not quite right yet.)

3. To praise or compliment unduly or insincerely... (Well, the unduly won't work, but the insincerely will. I'd say this is pretty close to the right definition in that context.)

4. To gratify the vanity or self esteem of....(There's a duck that won't fly!)

5. To bequile or persuade with artful brandishments...(Another non-starter)

This whole discussion is making a tempest in a teapot. In neither case (deceive or flatter) can you just jump to definition numero uno. The words are pretty much equivalent in their suitability. You've gotta find a new bone to pick.

 

Peace and love to you all in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour!

Skanw,

You quoted:

"No, unlike you, I don't have an ax to grind. I hate every evil way, and untruth is the very heart of evil, and KJVOism is centered squarely in the deepest well of evil."

--------------------------------------------------
Amen! I agree also that I hate every evil way!I think pride is at the heart of evil, for this caused the rebellion of Lucifer, which caused the deception that happened to Eve, which caused Adam to knowingly sin, even though he knew better, but for the sake of pleasing Eve, he disobeyed God.

What we are discussing here is the words "flatter" vs. "deceive" being used in the verse of Psalm 78:36 and whether this is the proper translation, or usage of the word deceive in that verse.

You said you do not have an ax to grind, but indeed you do, and made this quite evident in that same statement with: "KJVoism is squared in the deepest well of evil". Have I become now your enemy, because I speak to you the truth? Have I become your enemy because you believe (falsely) that I am something I am not -KJVonly? Is this fair and balanced? I have explained to you that I am not one that fits to that label, yet you continually label me that, and treat me as I am that. Do you think of me as being evil because you think I am a KJVOnly? I must be viewed as evil from you, because you have labeled me part of that camp. Are we to view our fellow christian bretheren/sisters in this manner? Are we to treat them in this manner? I do not feel hatred or resentment toward those who I see being deceived, but compassion with a desire to reach out to them in a Christlike manner with the truth. Your attitude is that I am not saved, and am an enemy (rather than a sister - which is the truth - I have been bought and paid with a price, the shed blood of my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ) because I think the modern versions are corrupt and debate why I think that. I just wondered how, if you need to be right all the time, how is it possible for you to have admitted your sins to repentance? I have never seen you since I have been posting here, ever admit to any faults, or wrongdoings, but rather have an attitude that you are always right.

You have accused me of having an ax to grind. I do not understand where you are getting that impression of me. You also accused me of sinning. This is a serious accusation, and I don't know what you are getting this, but I know, and God knows that I have not sinned regarding this situation. You accuse me of attacking God's preserved and inspired word. Which word is inspired Skanw, is it decieve, or is it flatter? It cannot be both, as has been shown to you over and over again. And I do not limit God in his ability to preserve every word of God that proceedeth out of the mouth of God as he has promised and said he would do. I believe this and I share it and I live it! Is it really me, who has attacked God's word? I am on here taking a stand for God's preserved and holy word, against those things that would or have corrupted it. I am exhalting the Lord our God and believe in Him and His promises by faith in his abundanct grace and mercy and shed blood, and the power of his word which will endure forever. You are on here standing for and defending modern versions and methods that have corrupted God's pure word subtley, and in this thread today, specifically pertaining to a word that shows that God can be decieved. Do you really believe this?

I asked you if you read and comprehended what I wrote in my posts, and I was specifically curious about your thoughts/understanding on what I said regarding the Holy Spirit and the Exhaltation of God by those who are his. Do you seriously think I am simply wrong? Am I wrong about everything that I have posted? I may be wrong in some things (not purposely/knowingly/willingly), or uninformed, but is all you desire to do on here is argue with others? You have not even tried to understand what it is that people are saying to you, you only read in a scholarly way, what they have said. You know, we are people here, and fellow christians, and all I see coming from you and people like you is a defensive attitude, and toward those also in the body of Christ Jesus our Lord, rather than one who likes to reason one with another in a gentle manner. You have been very quick to judge me and others based on a label given to us falsely. The Lord said we must judge righteous judgement.

You are correct, that God is one God in three persons/ the trinity. I in no way meant that he was not, but what I meant that he was not like a man (as being a person) but that he is above that of a man, for he is God Almighty. Can God be made to believe something that is not true? Can God believe a lie? Can God be deceived? Can man be deceived?

May the Lord continue to richly bless you Skanw.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle