Where in Scripture is...

Making the altar in front of the church a place for a 'Church Tribunal' is sick. Hey, that will bless all the members and newcomers right 'out of their socks.' We display our frustrations with members in the House of God by sitting in judgment of their behavior. The unsaved know of an occasional Christian who goes astray; now it is time for the church to try to handle it.

The Holy Spirit and the discipline of the Lord [Hebrews 12:5-8] can handle this better than other sinners saved by grace. Let's not jump in to quickly and do His ministry to an erring saint.

 

Romanbear,

So, is this what is behind the frustration of Calvinists with the 'altar call?' Now I understand what their problem is all about. Thanks!

This is not in connection with what you were saying, but I think the problem with some of our board posters is that there are way too many 'fruit inspectors,' as though we don't fall short of the glory of God in our own lives. Christian Phariseeism is really sick!

 

Brother Dallas,

You said, ' . . . salvation is being put in the altar call, a faith built upon the path walked by the sinner.' This shows your limited understanding at best and your bias at worse as to what is going on in the heart of sinners. You need to shake out of your mind the concept that you spoke of in the bold print.

Lost people know that they are following only what the spiritual leader is asking them to do. They know their need of Christ because who would go front, knowing that this means contrition and repentance, if they were not sincere about taking a public stand in asking Christ to save them. The sinner knows what you won't acknowledge. They realize that this is only a process leading to a good and new start in their lives. The sinner knows that they are going front to receive Christ and are willing to make this kind of new beginning. A sinner could be walking anywhere, say a path in the woods, and could still find Christ as Savior. The place and the walk or lack thereof matters little to nothing. The soon to become believer knows that the church---is the place where he or she can find spiritual help and guidance.

Rev. Dr. Billy Graham is correct in saying that 'Everyone that Christ called He called publicly.' Secret believers are few and far between. Eventually, a saved person is going to make it know to someone else.

Calvinists suppress the idea that the sinner knows all of the above. This is some of the reason why you have problems with the altar call. Personally, I was saved in my house at age eleven while kneeling in front of a living room chair. God can save a person standing up; it is completely a matter between the Lord and the sinner.

God does not first ring a bell, then regenerate a sinner, then give them faith. Sinners are first convicted and convinced of their sin and horrible position before Almighty God and then within their will and heart life, ask for forgiveness and invite Christ into their lives. Then at that same second God does His ministry of regeneration/justification.

Respectfully,

Ray

 

Hi frogman;
a quote from you;
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I don't know how man can 'fulfill' what Christ has completed (in his words 'finished'). Thus what is not Biblical is not Biblical plain and simple.
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Why Would Christ tell us to preach the gosple to every creature if his comandment to do so had already been fulfilled.

Your distorted view of the gosple is not Biblical.
Romanbear

 

God could have turned on a light over the heads of His elect called the sovereign flash--to bring in His elect, but He rather has chosen that saved people preach to everyone. [Mark 16:16] Why? Because He died for the sins of all rebellious sons and daughters of Adam. [I John 2:2] Acts 1:8 gives us the idea of the extent of His love toward sinners. 'Ye shall be witness unto Me . . . . and unto the uttermost parts of the world.'

 

The altar call is basically being used as what baptism was in the New Testament-- the public acknowledgement of the receiving of Christ.
The altar call has come under assault on several fronts. Not just the calvinists now, but also the Church of Christ and other Campbellistic groups, who would stand outside Billy Graham crusades handing out literature asking "where in scripture is there an altar call?". Knowing their position on baptismal regeneration, I began saying to myself, "what do they want; for graham and others to set up a baptismal pool and baptize everyone on the spot?" Of course, the Campbellites would believe that only baptism by one of their ministers would be valid. Maybe then they should have such rallies and just baptize everyone into their church. But I'm sure they wouldn't want that. Every group wants to make sure that the people claiming to accept Christ really understand what they are doing, are they sound? etc., and start to learn the Bible. Most churches have membership classes, and baptism has become associated with the act of joining an organized church fellowship, And since nonone wants just anyone to join their church, no one just baptizes anyone who comes without knowing them. Originally, the church was not a corporate "organization", and people were baptized directly into Christ, and then it was up to them to find a local fellowship of Christians to become a part of. Now, it is all "organization" oriented, many of them outright false (cults, etc), and even among the "orthodox", we believe we have more truth than others (such as this Calvinism debate!), so we can't just baptize someone into Christ and then tell them just to go fellowship somewhere. (This is precisely what Billy Graham is criticized for often). So Baptism remains associated with local church (or at least denomination) membership.
So something else now had to take the place of baptism at the evangelistic rally. Just calling them up to the altar without the water is just as public, but also allows for the ministers to pray with the person, perhaps talk to them, give them literature or New Testaments, get their name and schedule future meetings. This then will hopefully lead to baptism, membership and growth in Christ. Of course, like baptism, going down to the altar itself does not save, but should mark the acceptance of Christ, and if not, once the ministers explain it to him more in depth, hopefully then he would accept Christ. Of course, nothing is guaranteed, so people are wrong if they just pronounce someone saved simply for coming down to the altar.
I had been planning for some time to address this topic, but after Frank was booted for suggesting baptismal regeneration, had no real opportunity in this forum. This also helps discuss the passage he and others of a Campbellistic bent use, about how "baptism doth now save". It's baptism "by one spirit into one body" (becoming a Christian) that saves, and water baptism was the outward symbol of this transaction. But now unfortunately, many have come up with this new symbol, and this is what is causing all of this confusion. This is not necessarily justifying altar calls as the new "baptism", but just showing why it has taken its place. What do others who do not believe in altar calls think should be the public acknowledgement of Christ?

 

Primitive Baptist don't have an altar call... Now if you want to join our little flock... Just tell the Pastor as we are all singing and giving each other the right hand of fellowship... He will stop the singing and you can tell everybody why you want to join us... Your testimony and what the Lord means to you and you can join... Most just say I love the Lord and want to follow him in service and fellowship... No one comes to our church to accept Jesus... He accepted them long before they accepted him... WE LOVE HIM BECAUSE HE FIRST LOVED US... The church accepts them and they are baptised... Brother Glen The Primitive Baptist

[ March 31, 2003, 03:56 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

 

Brother Dallas you read it before I edited it... There are enough flames in this forum without starting another fire... I felt this would be to much for the brethren at this time ... Brother Glen The Primitive Baptist

 

What here I say? ... Brother Glen The Primitive Baptist

 

Brother Dallas... No offence taken... I'm playing with you too... Say... Here I say... Really fast ... You get it ... Jeff Weaver said of himself and it applies to me also... I've been called everything under the sun... Just don't call me late for supper... Brother Glen The Primitive Baptist

 

'He accepted them long before they accepted Him.'

This really pushes regeneration into overdrive doesn't it. This leaves too much room for easy believism. The pastor and or elders should investigate and understand whether the dressed up new member of the church really got saved or not.

 

That may be the position of your church Ray but in the Primitive Baptist Church we leave the eternal saving up to the Lord... I see you've never set foot in a Primitive Baptist Church... I've never been in one where they gave an altar call... I know in your churches you do but in our churches we don't... Maybe some other PB brethren will post and see if they have an altar call in their churches... And see what their feeling are on the altar call... What is the purpose of the Altar Call? ... Brother Glen The Primitive Baptist

 

Hi Ken;
A quote from you;
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By the way, Calvinism is true. You just don't accept that fact. But at some point in the future you will.
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My reply;
I guess we will have to see. Man has argued over what is true and false since the beginning,and is no closer to a solution than he was to start with. I'm just as sure of what I believe as you are about what you believe.
Romanbear