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Where is Hell? Part II

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by 3AngelsMom, Jan 22, 2003.

  1. neal4christ

    neal4christ New Member

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    I am sorry for getting agitated too. I can understand the frustration as well. I really did not mean to misrepresent you, that was really the point I thought you were getting at with your argument.

    I think I see the point where we diverge in our thinking, and like I said, we will probably get no further than that.

    I apologize again for getting testy with you.

    Neal
     
  2. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    I have explained this verse before. Naturally 3AngelsMom refused it. Every verse/passage must be taken in its context. A verse taken out of context only becomes a pretext for some other false doctrine. The Bible does say, "There is no God," and you can teach that from the Bible, if you wish. It is in Psalm 14:1. "The fool hath said in his heart there is no God." If you would like to be a fool and teach there is no God, go right ahead, for that is the context.
    What is the context of the book of Ecclesiates. Solomonm, as a philosopher, seeks out where joy may be found in life. He is a king, and has wisdom, riches, fame, and uses all of these things to his advantage. His conclusion in all: Vanity of vanities, all is vanity, saith the preacher. Life is just pure emptiness. Now, is that really true? No, that is looking at life from the outside, from the perspective of a worldly philosopher without Christ. Eccl.12:7 does the same thing. It is the conclusion of the unsaved man who views life without Christ. What does he see when a man comes to the end of his life and dies? His body goes into the grave and begins to deteriorate and eventually turns to dust. His spirit (he hopes) returns to God. Go to any liberal funeral and listen to the minister. They have only good things to say about the deceased and pray that God will accept that person (no matter how evil he may have been) into heaven. It is the thought of an unsaved person. This is Solomon looking at life from the real of outside of God. If you go to the end of chapter 12, you will hear him state God's view. He states the conclusion of the whole matter: to fear God and keep his commandments. You cannot draw Biblical doctrine out of a Book like Ecclesiastes without putting it in the proper contesxt.
    Inspiration meanst that God recorded all things accurately. That means He records accurately the devils lies as well. Will you believe them also?
    DHK
     
  3. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom <img src =/3mom.jpg>

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    Thank you, I forgive you.

    Go in Peace,

    God Bless.
     
  4. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom <img src =/3mom.jpg>

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    Neal,

    This passage kind of sums it all up.

    Ecc 3:17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.
    Ecc 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
    Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
    Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
    Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
    Ecc 3:22 Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?

    God Bless.
     
  5. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom <img src =/3mom.jpg>

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    Nobody wants to tackle this one?
     
  6. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Nobody wants to tackle this one?</font>[/QUOTE]First, read and understand my above post, then respond.
    DHK
     
  7. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom <img src =/3mom.jpg>

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    Nobody wants to tackle this one?</font>[/QUOTE]First, read and understand my above post, then respond.
    DHK
    </font>[/QUOTE]Which above post? The last post was to BobRyan......
     
  8. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    my last post
     
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    DHK said Eccl.12:7 does the same thing. It is the conclusion of the unsaved man who views life without Christ. What does he see when a man comes to the end of his life and dies? His body goes into the grave and begins to deteriorate and eventually turns to dust.

    While it is true that in SOME PARTS of Eccl Solomon asks us to consider the view of the lost man - that is NOT how he summs up the spiritual lessons that he has taught in the book.

    In stead we see the VERY spiritual perspective of Chapter 12 holding sway.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    In Hebrews 9 we find the teaching “For it is appointed unto man ONCE to die and THEN comes the judgment” – the advice that Solomon gives under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit – in conclusion to this book – is to tell us to seek God before we die.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Here is the verse once again:
    Eccl.12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

    There are only two possible views here. The one I gave you already, or possibly one other.
    The other view would agree with 2Cor.5:8. The verse speaks of death. The body turns to death, when one is absent from the body. The spirit returns to God, or as it says, "is present with the Lord." That harmonizes perfectly with 2Cor.5:8. Either way these verses do not teach soul sleep.
    DHK
     
  12. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom <img src =/3mom.jpg>

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    DUH, I know you want me to look at your last post, but the last post you made was adressed to BobRyan!

    Are you wanting me to respond to it too?
     
  13. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom <img src =/3mom.jpg>

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    Here is the verse once again:
    Eccl.12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

    There are only two possible views here. The one I gave you already, or possibly one other.
    The other view would agree with 2Cor.5:8. The verse speaks of death. The body turns to death, when one is absent from the body. The spirit returns to God, or as it says, "is present with the Lord." That harmonizes perfectly with 2Cor.5:8. Either way these verses do not teach soul sleep.
    DHK
    </font>[/QUOTE]There are only 2 possible views?

    What about these?

    Ecc 3:17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.
    Ecc 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
    Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
    Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
    Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
    Ecc 3:22 Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?

    And well, I can't help myself:

    ALL THESE:

    John 11:11 (KJV)
    11These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
    12Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
    13Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
    14Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

    1 Thessalonians 4:15 (KJV)
    15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    John 5:28 (KJV)
    28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    Genesis 2:7 (KJV)
    7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

    Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV)
    7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

    Job 27:3 (KJV)
    3All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;

    Psalm 146:3 (KJV)
    3Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
    4His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

    1 Timothy 6:15 (KJV)
    15Which in his times he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
    16Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

    Romans 2:7 (KJV)
    7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
    8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
    9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
    10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
    11For there is no respect of persons with God.

    1 Corinthians 15:51 (KJV)
    51Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
    55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
    56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
    57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Psalm 115:17 (KJV)
    17The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

    Acts 2:34 (KJV)
    34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
    35Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

    Psalm 6:5 (KJV)
    5For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

    Ecclesiastes 9:5 (KJV)
    5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

    Job 19:25 (KJV)
    25For I (JOB)know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
    26And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

    Ezekiel 18:4 (KJV)
    4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

    Romans 6:23 (KJV)
    23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    2 Timothy 4:7 (KJV)
    7I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
    8Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

    Revelation 22:12 (KJV)
    12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

    How do you refute ALL of that?
     
  14. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom <img src =/3mom.jpg>

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    Nobody wants to refute this?
     
  15. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    There is nothing to refute. You know how to post Scripture. That is good. There is someone else on this board who likes to give lists of verses without any comment. Most people just ignore the post. Probably most will ignore this one too. You have posted verses from the Bible; so what!

    Post a verse or two, and then explain it. Give us your take on it. Tell us what you are trying to say. Then ask us to refute it. Don't post the Bible and then complain to us: "Why won't anyone refute the Bible for me?"
    DHK
     
  16. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom <img src =/3mom.jpg>

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    Here is the verse once again:
    Eccl.12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

    There are only two possible views here. The one I gave you already, or possibly one other.
    The other view would agree with 2Cor.5:8. The verse speaks of death. The body turns to death, when one is absent from the body. The spirit returns to God, or as it says, "is present with the Lord." That harmonizes perfectly with 2Cor.5:8. Either way these verses do not teach soul sleep.
    DHK
    </font>[/QUOTE]There are only 2 possible views?

    What about these?

    Ecc 3:17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.
    Ecc 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
    Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
    Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
    Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
    Ecc 3:22 Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?

    It said that ALL return to dust again. Man and beast. Not one goes to the grave and the other to heaven or hell.

    And well, I can't help myself:

    ALL THESE:

    John 11:11 (KJV)
    11These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
    12Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
    13Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
    14Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

    Jesus called death 'sleep' twice, and then when they asked Him He said 'he is dead'. EVEN Jesus called death 'sleep'.

    1 Thessalonians 4:15 (KJV)
    15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

    It says they are asleep.

    16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    The Lord will ascend with a shout, a trump, and the voice of the Archangel, and the DEAD, who were just called 'asleep' in the last verse, will RISE first.

    John 5:28 (KJV)
    28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

    They that are IN the graves will hear His voice. If they were in heaven how would they hear His voice from the graves?

    29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    All will be resurrected, some to LIFE, and others to damnation. Does not say some to LIFE and some to life of damnation. The wicked do not receive immortal bodies.

    Genesis 2:7 (KJV)
    7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

    dust+breath=living soul

    Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV)
    7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

    dust-spirit= DUST!

    Job 27:3 (KJV)
    3All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;

    Job identifies the breath that is in him as the Spirit of God.

    Psalm 146:3 (KJV)
    3Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
    4His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

    When the breath leaves, his body returns to the earth and IN THAT VERY DAY, his thoughts perish. NO CONSCIOUSNESS.

    1 Timothy 6:15 (KJV)
    15Which in his times he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
    16Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

    GOD alone has immortality. GOD.

    Romans 2:7 (KJV)
    7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
    8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
    9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
    10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
    11For there is no respect of persons with God.

    Immortality is given to the just, and indignation, wrath, tribulation, and anguish will be upon the wicked, no mention of them receiving immortality.

    1 Corinthians 15:51 (KJV)
    51Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

    Death called sleep AGAIN.

    52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    At the last trump, not at a secret rapture before a 7 year tribulation the dead will be raised (the same dead that were just called 'those who sleep') incorruptable, or 'translated' into immortality, and WE, those alive shall be changed too.

    53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

    MUST. That means that it HAS NOT happened yet.

    54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    ONLY then can it be said that death has been defeated forever!

    55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
    56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
    57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Psalm 115:17 (KJV)
    17The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

    If you are dead, you cannot praise God. If you were in heaven don't you think that you would be praising Him? And if you think that is referring to the wicked, if they were dead and 'in hell' do you really think that they would be trying to praise God?

    Acts 2:34 (KJV)
    34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
    35Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

    David is not ascended. That is in Acts. AFTER the special resurrection, and after Jesus ascended.

    Psalm 6:5 (KJV)
    5For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

    In death people DO not remember God, and cannot give Him thanks. Isn't that strange. If I went to heaven that is the first thing I would do!

    Ecclesiastes 9:5 (KJV)
    5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

    WE who are alive know that we will die, but the dead DO NOT KNOW ANYTHING. Their memory is forgotten. Now, I know that if I went to heaven I would TOTALLY remember how I got there, and why I wanted to go!

    Job 19:25 (KJV)
    25For I (JOB)know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
    26And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

    He will STAND on the earth, not come close and then fly away. HE WILL STAND. And IN our flesh we will see Him. NOT IN SPIRIT, in FLESH, with our eyes. AFTER worms destroy the flesh. Now, if Job was already in heaven, wouldn't he have already seen God? hmm.

    Ezekiel 18:4 (KJV)
    4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

    The SOUL that sins will die. Basic math again dust+breath=living soul. THAT living SOUL will die. THE WHOLE THING. The entire MAN.

    Romans 6:23 (KJV)
    23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    The wage is death. If I have a job and the agreement was $5 an hour. And every week when I got my check I figured it out and they were paying me $2 an hour, don't you think I would be mad? Same thing here. The wage is death. Eternal punishment would be a $2 wage. A total rip off, a scam, and a lie. Last I checked, God was fair, just and DOES NOT LIE.

    2 Timothy 4:7 (KJV)
    7I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
    8Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

    Timothy had it right! He knew that he would not receive his reward until the LAST DAY. Now, if he was in heaven, would that be his reward?

    Revelation 22:12 (KJV)
    12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

    And this makes it all work. HIS REWARD IS WITH HIM. Now, if all the 'dead in Christ' were coming with Him in 'spirit' to be reinserted into their bodies, then WHY, oh WHY would He need to bring the reward for EVERY MAN according to their works?

    How do you refute ALL of that?
     
  17. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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  18. archie

    archie New Member

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    Hell in the center of the earth. Lake of Fire the Bible is not clear. From the questionw where is hell and the lake of fire?
     
  19. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom <img src =/3mom.jpg>

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    DHK,

    That was fun watching you dance around the WORD of GOD.

    NOT

    I guess the whole Bible is a metaphor and symbolic unless of course YOU need it to prove another false doctrine.

    Let's see "spirit resurrection" that would be YOU who said that, every time it has been said. Are YOU a Jehovah's Witness, because you seem to credit them each time?

    It is YOU who believes in reinsertion so quit trying to credit ME with YOUR false doctrine! You think you are separated from your body in spirit form at death and then at the resurrection you are 'similtaneously' put back in and given a new body. THAT IS REINSERTION. If you take something out and then put it back in, THAT is reinsertion. You believe in separation and reinsertion.

    Your 'logic' makes no sense and you are casting away the Word of God for your doctrines of men.

    May you live to prove to God in the Judgement that you did all you could in the light that you were given.

    Good Bye.
     
  20. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

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    Hi 3AngelsMom & DHK,

    Who believes what? What is the disagreement? I tried to follow your conversation, but it left me very confused.

    God bless,

    Carson
     
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