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Where oh where is the Sabbath?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by prophecynut, Jun 24, 2005.

  1. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    SIDE NOTE:

    If any of you are TRULY interested in finding out about the 7th Day Sabbath and not just here for the "debate" you can go purchase the video or DVD series on the History of the Sabbath... here:

    http://www.tagnet.org/llt/seventh_day.shtml

    and read the reviews:

    http://www.tagnet.org/llt/comments.shtml

    One of them is:

    "Thanks so much for this wonderful production of the Sabbath! My husband is Southern Baptist, and he watched this video with great interest. He was very impressed with the professionalism of the video; as well as the message." Carol from California
     
  2. prophecynut

    prophecynut New Member

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    Don't waste your money on false doctrine.
     
  3. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    It's a concept thing, and a simple one at that. Here it is....

    The New Testament says over and over again that we need to keep the commandments. When God says keep the commandments, we all know what that means, the Ten Commandments.

    There is no reason whatsoever to assume that for some reason, He doesnt mean or include also the 4th commandment, which is the 7th day Sabbath commandment.

    It is ridiculous to assume that in order for us to believe thatwe must keep the 7th day Sabbath, God must have to have reitereated that specific commandment in the New Testament... as in... telling us to keep the commandments just isnt good enough, He should've told us specifically we still need to keep the 4th one.

    The burden of proof is upon those who claim the commandment was changed to Sunday ... you need to show us where the Bible says that was changed. Otherwise there is no reason whatever to just assume that it was changed.

    In addition there is historical proof that it was the Roman Catholic Church who changed it.

    Let us read a most challenging statement made by the Church. They have done exactly what God predicted they would do.

    "The Pope is of so great authority and power that he can modify, explain, or interpret, even divine laws....The Pope can modify divine law, since his power is not of man but of God, and he acts as vicegerent of God upon earth with most ample power of binding and loosing the sheep."-From the Prompta Bibliotheca published in 1900 in Rome by the press of the propaganda.

    "The pope has power to change times, to abrogate laws, and to dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ."-Decretal de Translat, Episcop. Cap.

    The pope's will stands for reason. He can dispense above the law, and of wrong make right by correcting and changing laws."-Pope Nicholas, Dis. 96.

    It is within the inspired words "think to change times and laws" that we discover the "mark of the beast."

    The following are all authentic quotations that will definitely answer our questions as to what the "mark of the beast" is. Notice them carefully.

    "The Catholic Church for over one thousand years before the existence of a Protestant, by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday."-Catholic Mirror, Sept. 23, 1893.

    You will notice in this information that the Church declares that it was not God Who changed the day from Saturday to Sunday but that they, the papists, were the ones who made this change. The Sabbath was officially changed by the Papacy at the Council of Laodicea on March 7, 364 A.D. That was 43 years after Constantine declared Sunday the day for Christians to honor as a rest day.

    "Question.-Have you any other way of proving that the church has power to institute festivals of precept?"

    "Answer.-Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her,-she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority."-Rev. Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism, p. 174.

    This quotation emphasizes the fact that since the world accepts Sunday as a day of worship, this acknowledges her supremacy.

    "I have repeatedly offered $1,000 to any one who can prove to me from the Bible alone that I am bound to keep Sunday holy. There is no such law in the Bible. It is a law of the holy Catholic Church alone. The Bible says, 'Remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath day.' The Catholic Church says, 'No; by my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day, and command you to keep holy the first day of the week.' and lo! The entire civilized world bows down in reverent obedience to the command of the holy Catholic Church. 'Priest Enright, C.S.S.R., Kansas City, Missouri.

    There is no question concerning the changing of Sabbath the seventh day to Sunday the first day by the Papacy. You can readily see that there is nothing to be found in the Bible about changing the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday. The Papacy is correct in stating that they changed the day.

    "In reply to a letter of October 28, 1895, to Cardinal Gibbons, asking if the church claimed the change of the Sabbath as her mark, the following was received: 'Of course the Catholic church claims that the change was her act .... And the act is a mark of her ecclesiastical power and authority in religious matters.'-C.F. Thomas, Chancellor."

    Sunday is the mark of authority of the Roman Catholic Church. It is the "Mark of the Beast." Of this there is absolutely no question, either in the Word of God or in history.

    Are Protestant churches aware of these facts? Do they agree that there is no Scriptural authority for Sunday keeping? Let us now turn to the various Protestant churches and hear from them.

    Presbyterian: "The Christian Sabbath (Sunday) is not in the Scripture, and was not by the primitive church called the Sabbath.'Dwight's theology, vol. 4, p. 401.

    Congregational: "There is no command in the Bible requiring us to observe the first day of the week as the Christian Sabbath." Fowler, Mode and Subjects of Baptism.

    Lutheran: "The observance of the Lord's day (Sunday) is founded not on any command of God, but on the authority of the church."-"Augsburg Confession of Faith," quoted in Cox's Sabbath Manual, p. 287.

    Friends, don't you think that when a church admits they are following a teaching not founded on the Word of God, they ought to change and follow God's Word?

    Episcopalian: "The festival of Sunday, like all other festivals, was always only a human ordinance, and it was far from the intentions of the apostles to establish a divine command in this respect, far from them and from the early apostolic church, to transfer the laws of the Sabbath to Sunday."-Neander, The History of the Christian Religion and Church, p. 186, translated by Henry John Rose, B.D. (Philadelphia: James M. Campbell & Co., 1843).

    Here is another church that admits it was not the apostles' intention that the day of worship should ever be changed.

    Methodist: "it is true there is no positive command for infant baptism .... Nor is there any for keeping holy the first day of the week."-Rev. Amos Binney, Theological Compend, pp. 180, 181, 1902 ed.

    Even our Methodist friends admit that there is nothing in the Bible directing us to keep Sunday holy. Let us turn to our friends the Baptists:

    Dr. Edward T. Hiscox, author of The Baptist Manual, before a group of ministers, made this candid admission:

    "There was and is a commandment to keep holy the Sabbath day, but that Sabbath day was not Sunday. It will be said, however, and with some show of triumph, that the Sabbath was transferred from the seventh to the first day of the week, with all its duties, privileges, and sanctions. Earnestly desiring information on this subject, which I have studied for many years, I ask, Where can the record of such a transaction be found? Not in the New Testament, absolutely not. There is no Scriptural evidence of the change of the Sabbath institution from the seventh to the first day of the week.

    "Of course," he continues, "I quite well know that Sunday did come into use in early Christian history as a religious day, as we learn from the Christian fathers and other sources. But what a pity that it comes branded with the mark of Paganism, and christened with the name of the sun god, when adopted and sanctioned by the papal apostasy, and bequeathed as a sacred legacy to Protestantism!"-From a paper read before a New York Ministers' Conference, held Nov. 13, 1893.
     
  4. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    or to dumb this down even further, the question is not "Where oh where is the Sabbath" ... rather, the question is "Where oh where is the Sunday Sabbath change?" [​IMG]
     
  5. music4Him

    music4Him New Member

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    Arn't we suppost to also look at the things that Jesus did as an example of how to live also? The 4 gospels constantly have Him keeping the Sabbath. So if Jesus did it shouldn't we?

    Just a honest question with all sincerity.
     
  6. prophecynut

    prophecynut New Member

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    EricB said in the thread Sunday Sermons, "Messianic is a very broad category" in other words a wide spectrum of churches that add conditional legalism to faith. There are Jewish Messianic churches that practice all the Jewish rituals and on the other end others not Jewish like the SDA's that are on the outer edge of the twilight zone.

    Isaiah is given a prophecy "concerning Judah and Jerusalem" that is applicable today and has fulfillment during the first half of Daniel's 70th week (Isa. 1:1-23). God tells his people to "stop bringing meaningless offerings! Your incense is detestable to me. New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations - I cannot bear your evil assembles. Your New Moon festivals and your appointed feasts my soul hates (v.13)." Sacrifices and burnt offerings will be performed during the first half of the 7 years (v.11). Jewish rituals are unbearable, meaningless and detestable to God, conforming to these rituals today is a slap in the face. I certainly would not practice these rituals if God condemns them, would you?

    The last sentence of verse 15: "Your hands are full of blood" and the last sentence of verse 21: "She once was full of justice; righteousness used to dwell in her - but now murderers" refers to the murder of many Palestinians in Israel.
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    This is a good point - but what if you are one of those Christians who does not want to hear what Christ said??

    What if you want to snippet your Bible down to "Acts - Jude" and leave out all the other books including Revelation as "not applicable to me or my local church"??

    You see - your view is only good for Bible believing Christians that believe in accepting Christ's Word - and the entire 66 books.

    Believers like D.L. Moody would take your point very seriously.

    Believers 11 ---

    ProchecyNut -- 0

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    In Romans 3 Paul says that the believer ESTABLISHES the LAW OF GOD by faith.

    In Rev 12 the saints KEEP the commandments of God.

    In John 14 those who LOVE Christ the Creator KEEP His Commandments!

    In Heb 4 THERE REMAINS Sabbath rest for the People of God

    In Rev 14 it is the UNIQUE LANGUAGE of the Sabbath commandment that calls for Worship!

    In Isaiah 66 it is "ALL MANKIND" that comes before God to WORSHIP "From Sabbath to Sabbath".

    IN Mark 2:27 The Sabbath of Christ the Creator is "MADE FOR MANKIND"

    Obvious - exceedingly obvious.

    And yet each of these scriptures must be "ignored" if one is to take the pathy of a prophecynut.

    How "instructive".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. tamborine lady

    tamborine lady Active Member

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    [​IMG]

    Dear Mr. Prophecynut,

    Being the lady I am, I will not dignify your "context" comment with an answer. Except to say that you must look at scripture a lot different than I do.

    IMOHO, you wouldn't know context if it crawled into your brain and set up shop there!!

    Here's one right back atcha.

    :rolleyes: :eek: [​IMG]

    I won't bother you anymore with logic. I'm sure I can find something else to do besides be insulted by you. If YOU understood scripture, you would know what I was talking about.

    Matthew 15-15 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.
    16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?



    Working for Jesus,

    Tam
     
  10. prophecynut

    prophecynut New Member

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    Then you say:

    Tammy believes in the old legalistic approach to get even, "an eye for an eye." I love it, I love it.


    In my studies I've tried to build on the foundation built by my predecessors, when I come upon a mistake I fix it by thinking differently.
     
  11. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    The Biblical definiation for "SIN" is "transgression of the Law"

    1Jn:3:4: Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.


    The Apostle Paul clearly says that just because we are now under grace that DOES NOT mean we are free to sin [break the law].

    Romans 6:
    11: Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
    12: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
    13: Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
    14: For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

    15: What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

    16: Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

    17: But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
    18: Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
    19: I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
    20: For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
    21: What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

    22: But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.


    AND the Apostle Paul said that when we become servants to God instead as we formerly were- servants to sin... and the fruit of this is to make us holy.... resulting in the end in everlasting life...


    ...and so, somebody needs to explain to us where it is in the Bible that God told us that the Sabbath (being the 4th commandment in the Law) now may be disregarded and we are now free to transgress a part of the law and commit sin.

    Inevitably some will claim that all we have to do now is "have love". WHAT IS LOVE? are we now free to define that for ourselves? NO! Many have the mistaken idea that in New Testament times, under the new covenant, we must only have "love" and that the Ten Commandments are merely a "dead letter" that we need no longer concern ourselves with. However, the principles of love are defined within God's Ten Commandment Law. Let's listen to the Jesus...

    "Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked Jesus a question, saying, Master, which is the great commandment in the law? "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Matthew 22:36-40 The reason that Jesus said, "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets" is because the first 4 commandments define love to God (Thou shalt have no other gods before me, Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, etc.) and the last 6 define love to thy neighbor (Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal). This same idea is repeated by the Apostle Paul in the book of Romans:

    "...he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended (summarized) in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. " Romans 13:8,9: So you see then that love to God and neighbor is merely a SUMMARY of or is briefly comprehended in the Ten Commandment Law. And not only that but both Jesus and Paul were merely reiterating what had already been declared in old Testament times! Watch this:

    "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord: and thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." Deuteronomy 6:4,5.

    "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." Leviticus 19:18.

    Sound familiar? Jesus was merely quoting directly out of the old testament when He said Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind and Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    God's claims have always been the same. Jesus did not really give us a "new" commandment to keep, He was bringing to light the foundation principles of love which have always underlined the ten commandments of old. This is why John said the following words:

    "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning." I John 2:3-7. The principles of His government are the same. For all proceed from Him "with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning." James 1:17.


    ...and so as I said before --somebody needs to explain to us where it is in the Bible that God told us that the Sabbath (being the 4th commandment in the Law) now may be disregarded and we are now free to transgress a part of the law and commit sin.

    Nobody needs to prove that God told us to keep the Sabbath in the New Testament, because we have already been told we are not now free to transgress the Law.

    ------------------

    Claudia Thompson

    http://www.christiangraphics.org
    http://www.countrymanordesigns.com
    http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org
     
  12. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    As it turns out - this is the part where D.L Moody is making a lot of sense!

    Too bad so many people today reject his teaching.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    I noticed the other night when I came by and glanced over some of the posts on this thread that someone mentioned the Sabbath Rest commented upon in the Book of Hebrews.

    I just put up a new thread called "What IS the Sabbath Rest" concerning that very subject. So if anyone wants to read about that, they can. [​IMG]

    God Bless!
     
  15. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    Thanks for the link.
    for those who think there was a distinction between "the first 10" and "the rest", look at this:

    1. To know that G-d exists (Ex. 20:2; Deut. 5:6) (CCA1). See What Do Jews Believe?.
    2. Not to entertain the idea that there is any god but the Eternal (Ex. 20:3) (CCN8).
    3. Not to blaspheme (Ex. 22:27; in Christian texts, Ex. 22:28), the penalty for which is death (Lev. 24:16) (negative).
    4. To hallow G-d's name (Lev. 22:32) (CCA5). See The Name of G-d.
    5. Not to profane G-d's name (Lev. 22:32) (CCN155).
    6. To know that G-d is One, a complete Unity (Deut. 6:4) (CCA2). See What Do Jews Believe?.
    7. To love G-d (Deut. 6:5) (CCA3).
    8. To fear Him reverently (Deut. 6:13; 10:20) (CCA4).
    9. Not to put the word of G-d to the test (Deut. 6:16) (negative).
    10. To imitate His good and upright ways (Deut. 28:9) (CCA6).

    What happened to 4-10? What we see here is the 3rd split and spelled out more! One of "the Two" commandments all "hung on" is here as well, and that broken down into more positive commands.

    Then we have the first 3 expounded into separate "commands":

    312. Not to make a graven image; neither to make it oneself nor to have it made by others (Ex. 20:4)
    318. Not to worship an idol in the way in which it is usually worshipped (Ex. 20:5) (CCN12).
    319. Not to bow down to an idol, even if that is not its mode of worship (Ex. 20:5)

    Where are the rest of the "10"?

    108. Not to travel on Shabbat outside the limits of one's place of residence (Ex. 16:29) (CCN7). See Shabbat.
    109. To sanctify Shabbat (Ex. 20:8) (CCA19). See Shabbat.
    110. Not to do work on Shabbat (Ex. 20:10) (CCN6). See Shabbat.
    111. To rest on Shabbat (Ex. 23:12; 34:21) (CCA20). See Shabbat.

    59. To honor father and mother (Ex. 20:12) (CCA41).
    60. Not to smite a father or a mother (Ex. 21:15) (CCN44).
    61. Not to curse a father or mother (Ex. 21:17) (CCN46).

    278. Not to slay an innocent person (Ex. 20:13)


    103. Not to have intercourse with another man's wife (Lev. 18:20)

    274. Not to steal personal property (Lev. 19:11)

    281. Not to defraud

    282. Not to covet what belongs to another (Ex. 20:17)
    283. Not to crave something that belongs to another (Deut. 5:18)

    then you have the other of the Two:

    26. To love all human beings who are of the covenant (Lev. 19:18)

    So it is not as neat as it is being made out. Just as the Two hang on (or break down in detail) the Ten, the 613 hang on the 10. The 10 were inside the ark because they were the summary. The same 10 were also outside with the others, but a summary was to be kept inside. Nowhere does it say that only the ones inside the ark were "eternal", and only the ones outside could be "ignored" later on. The new Testament scriptures mentioning "commandments" do not say "only those on the inside of the ark". So if you are going to take those passages that way, then you are bound to do ALL of those listed (Gal.3:10). No; the commandments of the NT are the TWO, and what hangs on them (what they break down into) are not necessarily the Ten, just like they are not all 613! We are not to be "counting commandments" today anyway, but the Holy Spirit will teach/convict us what we are to do.
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The distinction regarding the Ten Commandments was made by God Himself.

    #1. HE said HE SPOKE these Ten and "added no MORE" in Deut 5. This is the ONLY LAW God spoke directly to mankind in a group setting. The only law WRITTEN in God's own hand writing!

    #2. HE had the Ten Commandment Law placed INSIDE the ark - NO OTHER LAW was placed there (1Kings 8)

    #3. The unit is CALLED the TEN commandments not the 600 commandments.

    #4. In Eph 6 Paul said that the 5th commandment is the FIRST commandment WITH a promise. This is ONLY true INSIDE the unit of TEN. It is not true in the book of Genesis or Exodus if taken as a book.

    This does not mean that the rest of God's Word "has no value" or "is not inspired" or is "not binding". It means that the UNIT ot Ten was SINGLED OUT by God.

    Isn't it "interesting" that it is an attack on that VERY unit - singled out by God -- that is so common today?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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  18. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    The 613 hung on, or are aprt of (spell out in more detail) the Ten. If what you're suggesting is true, then "he added no MORE" in Deut 5 means He did not give the other 600 (including the dietary laws, etc). but that is obviously not true. In fact, this proves that the 613 are not a separate set of laws from the 10. The 10 were a summary, so the others did not need to be in the ark. Likewise, the 10 hang on the Two (Matt.22:40)

    The people complaining about the "assault" on the 10 Commandments today need to realize this, as most of them do not keep the 4th; and a Barna poll suggested that many of these conservatives could not even remember all of them! Yet they are trying to push them on a secular non-Christian society, when that will do them no good if they are not saved. Even in the past when the commandments hung on more walls, people did not follow them. (Following the "letter" so much, they didn't realize things such as racism violated the intent of the Law, but thought that only sexual immorality and lack of belief of God were sins).
     
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Details in the text must be allowed - not ignored.

    The Deut 5 text SAYS EXPLICITLY that these were on the Tablets OF STONE. This SHOWS that God selected, identified AND ISOLATED that unit of TEN rather than the mishmash-amorphus-merge that some hope will obscure the distinct and unique role of the 10.

    Paul continues to reference "the unit" of TEN - in Eph 6.

    Notice there are not the "600 commandments" mentioned in scripture. But the TERM "Ten Commandments" IS the Term GOD uses!!

    IN Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    And the "600+" were APART of the unit of 10, and is NOT "ISOLATED" from them; else God did not "add" them. Go back and read where several of the 613 were the commandmens themselves, or reiterations or detailings of them!
     
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