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Where were saints before Jesus died on the cross?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by zrs6v4, Oct 22, 2009.

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  1. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Elect dead prior to the cross were in Paradise, NOT in what we glibly call "heaven", but certainly heaven-like.

    It is where Jesus went when He died. (Today you shall be with Me in Paradise). BTW, on Easter Sunday daybreak He told Mary He had NOT BEEN TO HEAVEN. Interesting.

    He then led those captive to Heaven, ascending on high with them in His train. (Ephesians gives a graphic pix)

    Today? We have a MORE BLESSED reward. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. This was radical and new as Paul shared it with the early church in Greece.
     
    #21 Dr. Bob, Nov 7, 2009
  2. Soulman

    Soulman New Member

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    Sorry, but no they are not the same.Paradise is in the earth and hell as we now have it is seperated by a gulf. Eventually death and hell will be thrown into the lake of fire. Re.20:13-14

    God could not allow o.t. saints into heaven because although their sins were covered, they were not paid for until Christ went to the cross. Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
     
    #22 Soulman, Nov 7, 2009
  3. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    I disagree as I do not believe there is a timeline for an omnitemporal God to follow. Paradise being in earth takes much speculation and reading into something that I do not believe should be done. Since Christ is God, and He is one with the Father, wherever Christ went when He died, that is Heaven.
     
    #23 webdog, Nov 7, 2009
  4. Soulman

    Soulman New Member

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    You have no biblical basis for your statement that I can find.
     
    #24 Soulman, Nov 8, 2009
  5. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    What biblical basis do you need to show that God is omipresent / omnitemporal? If God is not either, He is not God. I have presented numerous Scripture showing Heaven is referred to as paradise. There is no such Scripture stating paradise is anything other than Heaven...this is eisegeted into a handful of texts to prove otherwise. I'm sorry, but your view really has no biblical basis.
     
    #25 webdog, Nov 8, 2009
  6. Benefactor

    Benefactor New Member

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    The place where Abraham was then and now to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
     
    #26 Benefactor, Nov 9, 2009
  7. zrs6v4

    zrs6v4 Member

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    There is a lot to comment on, although thanks for the variety of viewpoints.

    #1 I dont think certain scriptures used are to give a location of heaven or hell, hence center of earth.

    #2 The absent from the body = present with the lord statement holds true no matter if in heaven or in hell or in paradise. where isnt God? I do think the key is that as believers when we die we will be with God in heaven today.

    #3 It does make sense that paradise was a holding place and that heaven is the final place, but it is a mystery as to how the afterlife functions. I do respect and consider many views here.

    #4 Webdog- I have tried to ponder the omnitemporal statement you have made in many other posts namely regarding predestination and this. I will hand it to you that it is a deep subject and very interesting. You should start a specific thread on it so that it can be taken deeper.
     
    #27 zrs6v4, Nov 10, 2009
  8. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    I have to discuss it in short bursts...it makes my head hurt to ponder it beyond that point :D
    I think I did try once, and it was dismissed and I was labeled a methodist :laugh: I think many theological differences could be cleared up by realizing God is capable, and does exist yesterday, today and tomorrow all at once. All "logical" orders we need and used are thrown out the window in that model.
     
    #28 webdog, Nov 10, 2009
  9. zrs6v4

    zrs6v4 Member

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    hah, oh ok... I understand and dont want to comment jus:tongue3:t to be safe then...
     
    #29 zrs6v4, Nov 10, 2009
  10. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Acutally web, it isn't eisegeted at all. The very words themselves, Hades and Sheol, in which scripture uses to depict the abode of the dead and which always refers to both places (the spiritual and physical) at once, with emphasis on the spiritual. IOW - neither are ever used to speak only of one place (ie . the grave). They are always described as 'decending' and are always understood as the 'abode of the dead'. (all of these in conjuction with the saints are pre-resurrection as you will not see these terms used again relating to the saints).
    This is seen here in the NET.bible

    Remember there are Hebrew words, used frequently in scripture, to mean the grave, and tomb, etc.. The word sheol has an historical meaning that is acknowledged by scholars and I have presented you evidence of it. It does mean the grave but not ONLY the grave as it's emphasis is toward the spiritual and thus both are inferred simultaneously but never meaning one without the other. It is of interest to note that David's Psalm chapter 16:10 is not tranlated as grave but as hell/sheol or the spiritual 'abode of the dead'.

    And here are other posts of mine going into more detail
    such as here
    ...and here
    ...and here

    Among many other posts farther back than I want to look :)

    All that to simply state - it isn't eisegetical at all but exegetical and is part of it's historically understood view.
     
    #30 Allan, Nov 10, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 10, 2009
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